"Just add a Knife" Forms

[Koshiki]

I'm fairly certain I know which way the pendulum will swing on this one, but I'm curious to hear everyone's opinions none-the-less.

I'm sure we've all heard the claim, in an attempt to demonstrate the versatility of a certain school/system/style, that runs something like, "Why yes, there are knife forms. Stick a knife in your hand, do the traditional forms, and there you go! Just adapt your motions and analysis to fit!"

It's a claim I've also heard for other weapons as well, although I'd say that, at least for most forms which I am familiar with, the knife claim is the most... interesting...

Thoughts?

 

[Dirty Dog]

There is some truth to it, of course. If you believe that forms are used to teach principles, rather than techniques, then the principles do carry over. Yes, distances and timing change, but the principles of attack and defense, deflection and penetration, balance and unbalance, etc, all remain the same.

 

[Blindside]

There are obvious overlaps, but if you don't study the knife as knife, not as knife as add-on explanation of empty hand then you miss about half of its application. As an example, obviously a shuto or knife hand chop to the neck can be replaced with a hack or slice to the neck, that is a straightforward interpretation. The receiver does an upward block to block the attack, again straightforward interpretation. And then the knifer retracts the knife with a circular slash along the blocking arm, slashing along the wrist, not a straightforward interpretation, not complicated but not a direct application because that motion has little use for the unarmed practitioner.

And I would say that you have to already know the knife to interpret the form, you can't just re-examine the form in the light of the knife, you literally don't know what you don't know.

 

[elder999]

There's some truth there-amazing how ugly some judo throws become with a knife in hand....

 

[Danny T]

There are obvious overlaps, but if you don't study the knife as knife, not as knife as add-on explanation of empty hand then you miss about half of its application. As an example, obviously a shuto or knife hand chop to the neck can be replaced with a hack or slice to the neck, that is a straightforward interpretation. The receiver does an upward block to block the attack, again straightforward interpretation. And then the knifer retracts the knife with a circular slash along the blocking arm, slashing along the wrist, not a straightforward interpretation, not complicated but not a direct application because that motion has little use for the unarmed practitioner.

And I would say that you have to already know the knife to interpret the form, you can't just re-examine the form in the light of the knife, you literally don't know what you don't know.

Yes indeed!
There are many things one can get away with vs empty hand that will get one badly damaged vs edged weapons.

 

[Koshiki]

And I would say that you have to already know the knife to interpret the form, you can't just re-examine the form in the light of the knife, you literally don't know what you don't know.

To be fair though, that pretty much applies to empty hand fighting too, you can't just learn a form, and expect to be adept at analysis with no prior experience.

But yeah, the just-add-weapons idea is one I gave about two days of thought when it was first presented to me and then dismissed out of hand as ridiculous, but which, while I still don't find convincing, I have over the years become less adamantly and completely opposed to than I used to be. Many traditional Japanese forms, if the movements become smaller, tighter and more fluid, do bear some resemblance to what quite a few knife guys do...

I know the knife arts guys I know are somewhat opposed to kata in general, but then the also do single person drills that look quite a bit like forms to me, so who knows...

 

[Blindside]

I know the knife arts guys I know are somewhat opposed to kata in general, but then the also do single person drills that look quite a bit like forms to me, so who knows...

I would say any art needs to demonstrate fundamentals of motion and have practice sequences for them, otherwise you wouldn't have anything to train when you are alone. But what you don't usually see is relatively long extensive fixed combinations like you see in Japanese or Chinese martial arts. Those in the FMAs that do have been influenced directly by foreign cultural arts or simply by their audience expectations of what they should have. As an example when GT Gaje started teaching in the US in the 70s the martial arts audience whose expectations of training included forms or kata. GT Gaje basically said "OK fine" and met those expectations by assembling several of his two person drills into a long solo form and using that as the basis of his instruction. As he continued his teaching over the years he has gone away from that approach and reverted to curriculum more based on those original drills. The important note here is that form was never the basis of the art, it was just somewhat unnecessary mnemonic device driven not by its importance in the curriculum but by what the consumer expected.

My currect curriculum does have little mini-kata, the main knife ones are about 7 beats, the main long blade one about 16 beats, so considerably shorter than most of the traditional kata that I know of.

 

[Mephisto]

We see just the opposite in FMA with a "just take away the knife" attitude. Some guys within FMA really push the angle that FMA is a complete system. I argue that sometimes this is true but not always. The best way to move and cover for a blade encounter is not the best way to move and cover in empty hand. you must train and emphasize each area specifically to understand the nuances. You can't specialize in everything and have the best of everything with a unified approach. I think skill in one area, empty hand or blade will have attributes that carry over to the other.

 

[Koshiki]

My currect curriculum does have little mini-kata, the main knife ones are about 7 beats, the main long blade one about 16 beats, so considerably shorter than most of the traditional kata that I know of.

Yeah, that's about the length of thing I was talking about, usually repeating mnemonics that alternate sides, most of which seem to be two-person compatible, or easily modifiable to be so. My point being, not that knife arts have forms that they don't call forms, but that solo-practice is solo-practice, and I can see the potential for forms in knife training, outside of performance.

Not that I'm at all sold on the idea of empty-hand forms being perfectly knife-compatible...

 

[Blindside]

We see just the opposite in FMA with a "just take away the knife" attitude. Some guys within FMA really push the angle that FMA is a complete system. I argue that sometimes this is true but not always. The best way to move and cover for a blade encounter is not the best way to move and cover in empty hand. you must train and emphasize each area specifically to understand the nuances. You can't specialize in everything and have the best of everything with a unified approach. I think skill in one area, empty hand or blade will have attributes that carry over to the other.

Totally agree. That right uppercut that looks just like a knife thrust is often not practiced with the body mechanics to make useful punch. It can be, but since the knife doesn't require it the practitioner doesn't get the reps to make it functional unarmed.

 

[Koshiki]

Totally agree. That right uppercut that looks just like a knife thrust is often not practiced with the body mechanics to make useful punch. It can be, but since the knife doesn't require it the practitioner doesn't get the reps to make it functional unarmed.

That, really, is the one big difference. The amount of force required to make an empty hand technique at all viable is so many times that required with a blade, that most blade techniques are pointless without that slicing, dicing, force-multiplier.

On the flip side, the larger motions required to generate the necessary force for unarmed combat become liabilities with edged weapons, as they are ponderous and overly spacious, leaving gaps both in time and space that are not only uncalled for but also detrimental to viable knife technique.

A small press and pull with a blade can do more than a wild smash with a forearm, and a fully committed thrust of the fist pales in comparison to a small poke with a pointed object...