Mekugi
Orange Belt
Note one instance where Mr. Draeger OR Mr. Kano say that wrestling is not a martial art. Mr. Kano does say boxing and wrestling are military arts:Patrick Skerry said:Hi Mekugi,
Dr. Jigoro Kano designated that judo consist of: 80% randori; 17% kata; and 3% shiai, with the admonishment that "contest should not be too emphasized". (source: 'What Is Rank?' by Donn F. Draeger; and, 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Dr.Jigoro Kano).
from: The Contribution of Judo to Education by Jigoro Kano:
"This holds true with boxing, wrestling, and different kinds of military exercises practiced all over the world."
Why? Uchikomi is a training exercise, not a technique. Those on Bobby Douglas' site are techniques, not "training excercises" unless you are impling that wrestling has no techniques. Moot.The wrestling techniques demonstrated in those video clips would be equivalent to 'uchi-komi' in judo, not kata.
Evidently you haven't seen Judo: Formal Techniques by Mr. Draeger. I met one of the people in those photos, he lives in Vancouver B.C. Great guy.Judoka practice their nage-waza and katame-waza independent of kata.
Read Father of Judo by Brian N. Watson. It suggests something a little different. As a matter of fact, I have heard the argument that Mr. Kano wanted to make the Japanese Jujutsu as "scientific" likw what he found in wrestling, and was greatly influenced by the sporting ideal. I think a great amount of was is being talked about were "ball sports" and gymnastics, notwrestling and boxing. Go figure.There is 'zero' connection between Dr. Kano's Kodokan judo in 1882 and free-style wrestling, if that is what you're trying to suggest.
from: The Contribution of Judo to Education by Jigoro Kano:
"Taking athletics as a whole, I cannot help thinking that they are not the ideal form of physical education, because every movement is not chosen for all around development of the body but for attaining some other definite object. And furthermore, as we generally require special equipment and sometimes quite a number of persons to participate in them, athletics are fitted as a training for select groups of persons and not as the means of improving the physical condition of a whole nation.
This holds true with boxing, wrestling, and different kinds of military exercises practiced all over the world. Then people may ask, "Are not gymnastics [calisthenics] an ideal form of national physical training?" To this I answer that they are an ideal form of physical education from their being contrived for all-round development of the body, and not necessarily requiring special equipment and participants. But gymnastics are lacking in very important things essential to the physical education of a whole nation. The defects are:
- Different gymnastics movements have no meaning and naturally are devoid of interest.
- No secondary benefit is derived from their training.
- Attainment of "skill" (using the word "skill" in a special sense) cannot be sought for or acquired in gymnastics as in some other exercises."
Unlike Russian S.A.M.B.O. [SAMozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya] 'self-protection without weapons', and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which are both directly derived from Kodokan Judo, wrestling had no influence on the development of judo.[\quote]
See above.
Ever seen the book "Complete Highschool Wrestling"? It as the "baseline for pure technique" in a step by step form, or kata. Bobby Douglas teaches the same thing in showing people technique. Wrestling is different, but just as much a martial art as Kodokan Judo. Define the word "Martial" and then you have the truth.Kata contains the baseline of pure technique which represents that particular martial art; kata enables a proponent to give a dignified demonstration of the style to the unitiated; kata allows the aged to continue to practice that style; kata allows a good work out while remaining conscious of good technique; kata allows the practice of dangerous techniques safely.
Kosen means "high school" but not in the sense of like, American highschools- this is a major mistake for western readers. They are (and were) schools for specialized vocations. Colleges were Kosen Schools too, such as Kyoto University, so you're a little off base from the start. The reason that newaza became popular at the Kosen Schools was because they found that shiai without weight limits (which is what that was all about, not because it was "easy") it was almost impossible to beat a larger person with a throw. So, they looked to newaza to beat people or pull a draw. Back then, competitions were done much like wrestling meets without weight limits (again), where groups would win and not individuals. This was more in tune with the Japanese way of thinking, so it was of course, first for the group. Mr. Hancock has his history wrong, in this case. I have visited and trained with the newaza dojo in Tokyo and have researched the subject rather completely. You can also check out the Kyoto University website on the subject, which has a complete history.Those wrestling techniques are similar but, in actual practice, are quite different from the 'kosen' techniques of late 19th to early 20th century judo. Please examine the excellent manual: 'The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (c. 1906) by H. I. Hancock, for historical reference. Kosen judo is "school boy judo" taught to elementary students in Japan at the turn of the century, because newaza was considered easy to learn.
So Wrestling is a martial art. Just different, right?Your quote: "Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?" regarding free-style wrestling techniques.
My response: I believe you already answered your own question - different flavor! Like chocolate & vanilla! There is a world of difference between judo and wrestling. If nothing else, it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented, judo emphasizes 'balance' while ju-jutsu emphasizes 'leverage'.
As I already wrote in a different post, judo has stringent guidlines as to what constitutes a 'throw' in comparison to a mere 'take-down'. Kodokan judo rarely uses take-downs, these wrestling (and Russian Sambo) methods were foisted upon judo during the '72 & '76 Olympics by the Americans and the former Soviet Union. The Kodokan reluctantly included a modification of take-downs within their accepted repetoire of judo techniques in 1982.
So any free-style wrestling move comes up very short of what is taught and practiced in the Kodokan.
HUH? Yeah, people living 300 years ago are usually dead. There is documentation as to when many styles of Jujutsu were invented. What are you talking about?Regarding Lineage:
The founders of western wrestling no longer exist, nor is there any concrete documentation as to when and where it was invented, or who invented it. Same thing for 'ju-jitsu'.
Mr. Kano studied Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I can tell you when both of these were created and by whom.The origins of both wrestling and ju-jitsu are shrouded in history - but not judo! Judo origninated in 1882 by Dr. Jigoro Kano, that is a fact.
It was developed out of a thousand year old martial art called ju-jitsu, there is no ambiguity here! There is a standard which maintains the integrity of judo, and that is called the Kodokan, located in Tokyo Japan. There is no equivalent for wrestling.[\quote]
Are you sure what you are writing here? You just contradicted your own logic. Plus, tell me when you went to the Kodokan and asked them "exactly how are you maintaining the integrity of Judo" and you probably get blanks stares. BTW and FYI, the Olympic Judo Committee and world headquarters is in Korea.
So, what is this stuff I see on the Olympics? Judo has sporting elements. That's a fact jack. It's also a martial art because it originated from MARTIAL practices. That argument does not, cannot and will not hold any water.Wrestling is not a martial art simply because it was intentionally reduced to a combat sport as an Olympic event. Judo was never developed as a sport, Dr. Kano made that perfectly clear in several of his papers on judo!
Actually, my observation was objective, not ambiguous- that's why I listed who did what. The point is that MARTIAL is MILITARY. Put two and two together.You mentioned that "Greco-Roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan judo". Is there a hidden point here? This observation is a bit ambiguous.
No, Greco-roman wrestling cannot trace it's lineage back several thousand years. It's neither Greek nor Roman. Another subject.Kodokan judo was only founded in 1882, Greco-Roman wrestling can trace its lineage back several thousand years
I am not sure how you came up with the idea that I was saying that Jujutsu was based on European wrestling. That's a rather long stretch. Japanese Wrestling (jujutsu) indigenous to the country, like Sumo.so what is it you are asking? Kodokan judo in 1882 and wrestling have nothing to do with each other. Kodokan judo is based on ju-jutsu, not wrestling!?
See above.The unbroken lineage of Greco-Roman wrestling gives it more in common with Japanese Sumo, than judo.
It's wrestling, and has an ancient lineage in the military. It is similar to Greco-Roman wrestling (well, the version we do know, which is really freestyle). It is a martial art.And again, what does Turkish wrestling in the 1640s, or any wrestling for that matter, have to do with the formation of judo in 1882? Judo was created from ju-jutsu, independent of western wrestling.
AHEM...Kano did not developed Judo out of three martial arts. Pure fabrication. He developed Kodokan Judo from KITO RYU and TENJIN SHINYO RYU with input from several different ryu at the Butokukai when formulating the "formal technques". Actually, Kano borrowed the term Judo from KITO RYU which changed it's named from Kito Ryu Kumi Uchi to Kito Ryu Judo waaaay back when. All of these things are DOCUMENTED. What you are talking about in # 3 is SOSUISHI RYU or SOSUISHITSU RYU, something I have studied for lets see, 18 years. See my website www.sosuishitsuryu.com.As you should know, judo was developed primarily from three styles of ju-jitsu: 1. Kito-ryu (to rise and fall) ju-jutsu; 2. Tenshin Shinyo-ryu (School of the Natural Way) ju-jutsu, and 3. Sousuishita-ryu ju-jutsu. And Dr. Kano adopted the term 'judo' from Jinkinshin Judo (1700's) and called his form of ju-jutsu 'Kodokan (Place to study the Way) Judo' to distinguish it from Jinkinshin Judo.
Umm....you might want to rethink that statement.All this you should already be familiar as a serious judo enthusiast and practitioner.
Yours in judo.