JU-Jitsu vs. Boxing and Wrestling

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Joab

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JU-JITSU VS. BOXING and WRESTLING
by Halford E. Jones

Ever since Gus Lesnevich knocked out the American Judo Champion in the second round of a match set in Chicago during the Second World War years, controversy has raged over the merits of boxing, judo, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling. On that decisive night, the supremacy of boxing was supposedly reasserted in the entire sporting world.

Black Belt Magazine reported a match between Gene LeBell, judo and wrestling expert, and Milo Savage, a boxer, in which LeBell defeated Savage with a judo throw followed up by a choke hold which rendered the boxer unconscious in the fourth round.

What do such matches prove?


Source: Health & Strength Magazine, June 1972.

Rest of article can be read here.
 
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Tez3

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I propose we have a moratorium on style v style threads.
 
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Joab

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I propose we have a moratorium on style v style threads.

The point of the article was to show a historic perspective on the style vs. style debate. And one of the main points was that due to rules, clothing requirements and the like, style vs. style arguements in a sporting contest prove little. What is far more accurate are documented hand to hand fights between police and criminals and after action reports in war that involve hand to hand combat. In those examples, there are no rules that hamper the effectiveness of one style vs. another style.

I found the article to be a good read, if you didn't, sorry you came across something you didn't particularly care to read. I hope the rest of your day goes better.
 

Tez3

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The point of the article was to show a historic perspective on the style vs. style debate. And one of the main points was that due to rules, clothing requirements and the like, style vs. style arguements in a sporting contest prove little. What is far more accurate are documented hand to hand fights between police and criminals and after action reports in war that involve hand to hand combat. In those examples, there are no rules that hamper the effectiveness of one style vs. another style.

I found the article to be a good read, if you didn't, sorry you came across something you didn't particularly care to read. I hope the rest of your day goes better.

Historically any thread titled ...v ...ends up as a argument not a debate.
 

BrandonLucas

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The point of the article was to show a historic perspective on the style vs. style debate. And one of the main points was that due to rules, clothing requirements and the like, style vs. style arguements in a sporting contest prove little. What is far more accurate are documented hand to hand fights between police and criminals and after action reports in war that involve hand to hand combat. In those examples, there are no rules that hamper the effectiveness of one style vs. another style.

I found the article to be a good read, if you didn't, sorry you came across something you didn't particularly care to read. I hope the rest of your day goes better.

I think what she was getting after is that this argument is done to death...and the fact that the argument goes back that far really doesn't do anything to solve the issue, which is to educate people to understand that there truly is no superior style, only superior martial artists.

These threads seem to pop up more and more, and it's always the same thing...and I've been guilty of posting on them from time to time, I admit, but honestly...what more can anyone really add to this? The same points are argued back and forth, back and forth, and no one ever seems to take a look at the fact that everything is situational...everything depends on everything else...anything is a factor. David vs. Goliath matches have ended in every way concievable. Style vs. style matches have done the same thing. To look at the stats is pointless...it's the same as trying to prove or disprove that no 2 snowflakes are the same.

I can fight the same guy, with both of us using the same fighting style, in the same alley way, with the same weather conditions, on the same day, and the outcome of the fight can still be different. There just simply is no way to prove 1 art is superior to another.

Now, 1 art may be better suited to an individual than another, and that would work better for them than any other art, but that doesn't make the art superior overall...it just makes that art superior for that individual.

I just wish people would let the style vs. style things die.
 

Aiki Lee

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such arguements are as old as the martial arts themselves, and will outlive us all as well. These kinds of arguements are usually brought up by people who have no idea what they are talking about.
 

cane56

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JU-JITSU VS. BOXING and WRESTLING
by Halford E. Jones


Ever since Gus Lesnevich knocked out the American Judo Champion in the second round of a match set in Chicago during the Second World War years, controversy has raged over the merits of boxing, judo, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling. On that decisive night, the supremacy of boxing was supposedly reasserted in the entire sporting world.

Black Belt Magazine reported a match between Gene LeBell, judo and wrestling expert, and Milo Savage, a boxer, in which LeBell defeated Savage with a judo throw followed up by a choke hold which rendered the boxer unconscious in the fourth round.

What do such matches prove?


Source: Health & Strength Magazine, June 1972.

Rest of article can be read her
 

cane56

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Let's pause the second and remember my little Savage was ranked what 9th or 10th in the world on his way down. And there never was a beast nor ever will be like judo Gene. And when you're talking self-defense I don't think you can pick a technique. You might be better off picking the man. In a bar fight where there's tables and chairs everywhere, and the first punch is thrown by a boxer he wins. In a field where everybody is equal the wrestler or jujitsu wins, unless the boxer strikes first then the boxer wins. You have to get into the ring with a boxer to understand the power that they have.
 

geezer

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Let's pause the second and remember my little Savage was ranked what 9th or 10th in the world on his way down. And there never was a beast nor ever will be like judo Gene. And when you're talking self-defense I don't think you can pick a technique. You might be better off picking the man. In a bar fight where there's tables and chairs everywhere, and the first punch is thrown by a boxer he wins. In a field where everybody is equal the wrestler or jujitsu wins, unless the boxer strikes first then the boxer wins. You have to get into the ring with a boxer to understand the power that they have.
If history, especially more recent history has taught us anything it's that you have the best odds if you are a well rounded fighter who can handle kicking, striking and grappling, and can adapt to the situation.

Of course in traditional Chinese martial arts, there is a saying that to fight you need skill in ti da shuai na or "kicking, punching, throwing and grappling". So maybe sensible people have always known that! ;)
 

lklawson

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Well, since you decided to necro-thread this for some reason, I should point out that the author of the 1972 BB mag article is off on his dates by around half a century. Starting with Bartitsu and then after Barton-Wright closed his school and Tani (as well as Uyenishi) left to follow their own path, Tani exhibited Jujutsu in music and beer halls, engaged in exhibition matches, etc. At the time that Barton-Wright opened his school, Boxing was THE self defense martial art in England and it was inevitable that there would be comparisons and the 1899 version of water-cooler debates. Very quickly Boxing v. Jujitsu challenge matches were set up and began drawing advocates and fans.

Here's a particularly famous match:

image.png


It was all shook out 60-ish years before the famous Lebell/Savage match but humans are dumb and have short memories.

In fact, the fight ended the same way, the boxer choked out by hadaka jime.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Let's pause the second and remember my little Savage was ranked what 9th or 10th in the world on his way down. And there never was a beast nor ever will be like judo Gene. And when you're talking self-defense I don't think you can pick a technique. You might be better off picking the man. In a bar fight where there's tables and chairs everywhere, and the first punch is thrown by a boxer he wins. In a field where everybody is equal the wrestler or jujitsu wins, unless the boxer strikes first then the boxer wins. You have to get into the ring with a boxer to understand the power that they have.
Your first sentence had me confused until I realized that autocorrect had changed Milo to my little. I was wondering who your little savage was. :)
 

Urban Trekker

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I've always kind of suspected this, but this match supports something I've always thought:

Just because you're only trained in grappling doesn't mean you're not allowed to strike.

The same is also true in the reverse.

But... in trained versus untrained, I think there's a far greater difference in grappling than in striking. The wrestler/judoka's untrained strikes will be of far greater benefit to him than a boxer's untrained grappling; assuming that a boxer even attempts to grapple in the first place.
 

Urban Trekker

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Another thing I'd like to add: boxers are only trained to strike while standing, as is the case with most other striking arts. Get that boxer to the ground, and his punches from there on are no better than the grappler's.
 

caped crusader

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Another thing I'd like to add: boxers are only trained to strike while standing, as is the case with most other striking arts. Get that boxer to the ground, and his punches from there on are no better than the grappler's.
have you, yourself ever boxed in a ring? I agree with some of your post but put any Gracie up against a prime say...Tyson. He would destroy any of them. depends on the skill of the people not the "style"
 

Urban Trekker

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have you, yourself ever boxed in a ring? I agree with some of your post but put any Gracie up against a prime say...Tyson. He would destroy any of them. depends on the skill of the people not the "style"
Uhh bro, being a trained striker who has fought a trained grappler or vice versa would be the experience that establishes credibility, not being a boxer who has boxed.

You need to calm the f*** down on trying to call other people out. Because not only have you looked like a fool every time you've done it, but frankly, you're annoying the piss out of everyone.
 
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caped crusader

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Uhh bro, being a trained striker who has fought a trained grappler or vice versa would be the experience that establishes credibility, not being a boxer who has boxed.

You need to calm the f*** down on trying to call other people out. Because not only have you looked like a fool every time you've done it, but frankly, you're annoying the piss out of everyone.
hey woooooh... what the hell are you on?
I asked if you織ve ever boxed. so from your answer i am guessing NO.
What is a trained striker to you? for me real full sparring in a ring not some drills against a pad.
 

Urban Trekker

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hey woooooh... what the hell are you on?
I asked if you織ve ever boxed. so from your answer i am guessing NO.
What is a trained striker to you? for me real full sparring in a ring not some drills against a pad.
No, I've never boxed, and it doesn't matter.

And neither have you.

Two boxers boxing is not a boxer fighting a grappler, which is the topic of discussion. If you're going to call someone out on something, then at least call someone out on what's relevant to the discussion.
 

caped crusader

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No, I've never boxed, and it doesn't matter.

And neither have you.

Two boxers boxing is not a boxer fighting a grappler, which is the topic of discussion. If you're going to call someone out on something, then at least call someone out on what's relevant to the discussion.
OK ... no point in writing to you hothead. By the way i have Boxed at Army level. you need to relax stud ;)
 
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