JKD

[Dinkydoo]

So, I had my first JKD lesson tonight and have a few questions that maybe some experienced JKDers could help with:

1) How do I tell what a good JKD club looks like?

2) Will doing JKD and Muay Thai be a waste of time? The JKD structure is very different to my kickboxing stance, I feel as though they probably aren't compatible arts. Anyone here cross trained JKD successfully?

3) Is it supposed to feel like a rigid system in the beginning? Totally contrary to the JKD philosophy of formless, tonight felt more like "right foot is mostly forward, left hand is here, right here"...etc. I appreciate that I am a beginner though.

 

[The Great Gigsy]

Hey Dinkydoo, I have been training JKD for a few years so I will attempt to answer your questions. In regard to the first question, I would say it depends on how you judge the training as being JKD or not. One of the ways I determined my sifu was legit was looking at his lineage as I want as close to Bruce Lee's philosophy. Now keep in mind that was my preference on how I determined if what I was being sold was what I was looking for. I'm sure how to answer your second question, but I will answer based on what I think us being asked. In JKD we do tend to keep a narrow guard, which if I am correct is based on Bruce Lee's wing chung background. Last anything new is going to feel akward at first. If this feeliing is based on the fact that we put our strong side first then by all means train with the side leading is more comfortable. When I started training having my right felt akward and I felt like my pysh step was weak with my left leg so I went back to a left lead. Hope at least some of this helped and feel to ask any questions. I will do my best to help, have fun JKD is awesome.

 

[crazydiamond]

Been training over a year now so I am no expert, but some comments I have.

There is JKD "traditional" as Bruce Lee left it exactly way back in the 60/70's when he died. Only what was taught then. However understand that even then he was mixing in different arts. His base was Wing Chun after all but he modified that to add in other arts. He was often called one of the founders of MMA (but other people did too). For old school JKD - "China Town JKD" comes to mind as a "traditional" JKD school. Great videos on line from them ! I am sure you can search for traditional JKD schools through them or the Bruce Lee foundation.

There is JKD "concepts" as his main student Dan Inosanto carried on after his death, and other students or sub students (now Guru's) as well such as Ron Balicki (M.A.R.S). Now these schools blend in a heavy dose of Kali/Arnis, Muay Thai, Silate, Savate, Boxing, Shoot and Catch and BJJ grappling.... and more !.... Its VERY much mixed martial arts. You can search for authorized schools under Dan or Ron to find good JKDC schools.

I train under JKDC - as you can tell from my profile pick of Bruce and Dan. As such I regularly switch between JKD forms, Muay Thai, traditional boxing, and more.

Honestly it is confusing to me to mix all these different styles sometimes, more than once I have asked "wait ! what stance do you mean I should get into ? JKD, Boxing, or Muay Thai? There has also been some very rigid testing on JKD forms. However while a more complex to train one day in one system - and the next day in another - I get that evernutally I get to choose what works for me - but you got to learn it all. In other words - how to you put two 2x4s together ? Well - hammer and nail, screw driver and screw, or maybe nail gun. You should spend a lot of time doing all three but in the end you will choose what works for you on that day you need to put it together.

Specific answers below

So, I had my first JKD lesson tonight and have a few questions that maybe some experienced JKDers could help with:

1) How do I tell what a good JKD club looks like?

Well you can look at instructors lineage and certifications - or links to Bruce Lee foundations, or bruce lee students, or organizations. But the club looks and feels like - its vibe and student mix I think mean a lot to your interest.

2) Will doing JKD and Muay Thai be a waste of time? The JKD structure is very different to my kickboxing stance, I feel as though they probably aren't compatible arts. Anyone here cross trained JKD successfully?

Yes - I do it all the time. After a year of training I can say I can now more readily get into various styles and forms - switching from JKD, to boxing, to Muay Thai, to Kali. I like having a tool box of moves to see which I like - but its confusing and a lot to remember at times.

3) Is it supposed to feel like a rigid system in the beginning? Totally contrary to the JKD philosophy of formless, tonight felt more like "right foot is mostly forward, left hand is here, right here"...etc. I appreciate that I am a beginner though.

Its rigid in that you need to learn it first, try it, understand it, memorize it, but in the end you will choose what works for you in combat and your use may change over your life time.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Been training over a year now so I am no expert, but some comments I have.

There is JKD "traditional" as Bruce Lee left it exactly way back in the 60/70's when he died. Only what was taught then. However understand that even then he was mixing in different arts. His base was Wing Chun after all but he modified that to add in other arts. He was often called one of the founders of MMA (but other people did too). For old school JKD - "China Town JKD" comes to mind as a "traditional" JKD school. Great videos on line from them ! I am sure you can search for traditional JKD schools through them or the Bruce Lee foundation.

This would be the Ted Wong and Jerry Poteet side of the JKD Fence, and I tend to like this side better. But that is solely a personal preference and not any statement as to which side of the fence is better

 

[Dinkydoo]

Thanks for the detailed response.

I trained at a club where there is a direct lineage to Bruce Lee and it is definitely of the 'old JKD' variety.

I have the books compiling Bruce's notes on fighting technique and philosophy and have been training with the kind of progressive mindset that he conveys throughout them for a couple of years now - e.g. I favour a forward facing muay thai/kickboxing stance when sparring, but I'll blend techniques and other standup structures, when the situation allows it, from any of the styles I've done a bit of training in (utilising what what works for me).

What surprised me most about last night was being stuck in a very prescribed structure, following a rigid strategy of hitting whatever target was closest to me (the knee/groin first, mostly) and to me, it seemed like there was a very 'right' and 'wrong' thing to do in each of the 'freestyle' drills we went through. Ironically, it felt a bit dogmatic and more importantly, I think it would become predictable after you've tried it a few times - for instance: I like to use a lead leg low kick and transition quickly into a type of superman punch as an entry strategy, but if I try it a few times in a bout of sparring, it'll be anticipated by my opponent and it won't end well for me.

Maybe it's because it was my first night and I was doing the beginner stuff trying to get the jkd structure ingrained in muscle memory, but it felt like a very traditional system and that's definitely not what I was expecting.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I should probably add that I'm not writing it off after only 2 hours as being "not for me". I enjoyed the lesson and will be back to give it a few more goes before commiting to membership, if possible.

I expected it to be different though.

 

[The Great Gigsy]

I'm not sure what you mean by the training being rigid. I know that proper structure in strikes is important and would say that following proper alignment may seem rigid, but JKD as an art should not be made to seem rigid. Is your school more of the concepts or for a lack of a better term on the traditional end of the spectrum?

 

[Dinkydoo]

I'm not sure what you mean by the training being rigid. I know that proper structure in strikes is important and would say that following proper alignment may seem rigid, but JKD as an art should not be made to seem rigid. Is your school more of the concepts or for a lack of a better term on the traditional end of the spectrum?

The structure felt strongly aligned, but that's not what I meant by rigid. I meant rigid as in having an unchanging, set approach to dealing with attacks and pre-emptively striking. The class was traditional jkd rather than concepts jkd.

Anyway, I've only done two hours of it so far, so I've probably misinterpreted a load of stuff.

 

[Star Dragon]

I am not really a JKD guy, however, I came across that art fairly early in my MA training and it inspired me a lot. I assimilated Lee's philosophy as presented in The Tao of Jeet Kune Do and, over time and after having studied several traditional styles, I devised my personal art (which happens to have a number of similarities with JKD).

I think if you practice JKD as the "pathless path" Lee intended it to be, there should be no problem integrating Muay Thai (or any other style) into your individual art. However, doing Muay Thai at one time, BJJ at another (or what have you), is not integration, and I am a little surprised about that being taught by some JKD schools.

As I said, I also assimilate methods from several arts, but I often find that I need to modify them in order to blend in. Talking about your example, you could study how to do your Muay Thai techniques from the JKD on-guard position, or perhaps invent a custom-designed fighting stance that goes well both with your favourite Muay Thai and JKD moves.


The question it boils down to is whether one wants to follow Lee's words, or his spirit.

Based on the impression I get from your description, I am not sure if your current JKD school will ever let you experiment and find your own way, however, as far as the example you gave, it seems like were doing a free-sparring drill whose purpose may have been to single out one particular fighting method. In the beginning stages, stuff must be ingrained by relatively rigid repetition as to have a firm base for creative expression later.

I think, if you visit a few more classes, you will find out if the school is for you. Perhaps you can start a chat with some seniors, and unobtrusively bring up Lee's open minded philosophy of the martial arts, how you are hoping to blend in your Muay Thai with your JKD training etc. By the way they react, you will know them... Good luck!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks for the detailed response.

I trained at a club where there is a direct lineage to Bruce Lee and it is definitely of the 'old JKD' variety.

I have the books compiling Bruce's notes on fighting technique and philosophy and have been training with the kind of progressive mindset that he conveys throughout them for a couple of years now - e.g. I favour a forward facing muay thai/kickboxing stance when sparring, but I'll blend techniques and other standup structures, when the situation allows it, from any of the styles I've done a bit of training in (utilising what what works for me).

What surprised me most about last night was being stuck in a very prescribed structure, following a rigid strategy of hitting whatever target was closest to me (the knee/groin first, mostly) and to me, it seemed like there was a very 'right' and 'wrong' thing to do in each of the 'freestyle' drills we went through. Ironically, it felt a bit dogmatic and more importantly, I think it would become predictable after you've tried it a few times - for instance: I like to use a lead leg low kick and transition quickly into a type of superman punch as an entry strategy, but if I try it a few times in a bout of sparring, it'll be anticipated by my opponent and it won't end well for me.

Maybe it's because it was my first night and I was doing the beginner stuff trying to get the jkd structure ingrained in muscle memory, but it felt like a very traditional system and that's definitely not what I was expecting.

My Brief exposure was from a student of Jerry Poteet and my impression was not one of rigidity but efficiency. I was also rather surprised at how much of the JKD I learned was applicable to the Xingyiquan I did. But I tend very much towards the Ted Wong/Jerry Poteet side of the JKD fence, but I also can't get past this quote from Bruce Lee

Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I am not really a JKD guy, however, I came across that art fairly early in my MA training and it inspired me a lot. I assimilated Lee's philosophy as presented in The Tao of Jeet Kune Do and, over time and after having studied several traditional styles, I devised my personal art (which happens to have a number of similarities with JKD).

I think if you practice JKD as the "pathless path" Lee intended it to be, there should be no problem integrating Muay Thai (or any other style) into your individual art. However, doing Muay Thai at one time, BJJ at another (or what have you), is not integration, and I am a little surprised about that being taught by some JKD schools.

As I said, I also assimilate methods from several arts, but I often find that I need to modify them in order to blend in. Talking about your example, you could study how to do your Muay Thai techniques from the JKD on-guard position, or perhaps invent a custom-designed fighting stance that goes well both with your favourite Muay Thai and JKD moves.


The question it boils down to is whether one wants to follow Lee's words, or his spirit.

Based on the impression I get from your description, I am not sure if your current JKD school will ever let you experiment and find your own way, however, as far as the example you gave, it seems like were doing a free-sparring drill whose purpose may have been to single out one particular fighting method. In the beginning stages, stuff must be ingrained by relatively rigid repetition as to have a firm base for creative expression later.

I think, if you visit a few more classes, you will find out if the school is for you. Perhaps you can start a chat with some seniors, and unobtrusively bring up Lee's open minded philosophy of the martial arts, how you are hoping to blend in your Muay Thai with your JKD training etc. By the way they react, you will know them... Good luck!

You seem to approach your martial arts training in a similar way to myself - I too have The Tao of Jeet Kune Do and Bruce Lee's Fighting Method; I've used them quite considerably when adapting techniques and suchlike to fit in with my own personal fighting 'style'. I'm forever examining fighters and looking for little bits that I can try to work into my next session - I would definitely say that I share BL's open minded philosophy about training and experimentation. I'm going to attend a few more classes and try to get a feel for how much scope there would be at this club for that.

Another bit that I forgot to mention which I found a bit weird (and this is really just a general statement), was being forced to throwing hooks with a verticle fist. I throw jabs with a vertical fist sometimes and can appreciate that it is structurally stronger than the horizontal fist jab, but the hook I didn't particularly like.

 

[Dinkydoo]

My Brief exposure was from a student of Jerry Poteet and my impression was not one of rigidity but efficiency. I was also rather surprised at how much of the JKD I learned was applicable to the Xingyiquan I did. But I tend very much towards the Ted Wong/Jerry Poteet side of the JKD fence, but I also can't get past this quote from Bruce Lee

It is a great quote and one that is reiterated by Linda Lee in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do introduction:

"Now open your mind. Read. Understand. Experience. And when you've reached that point of understanding, disregard this book. The pages are best used for cleaning up a mess, as you will see"

Truth be told, it was going into the class with this kind of expectation that made me find the "we do this in response to that, always with this structure..." kind of methodology contradictory to how I envisaged Lee's words were supposed to be interpreted.

Fully aware that this is a pretty bold statement coming from a guy with such limited class contact time in JKD. So I'll not say much more about it.

 

[Star Dragon]

You seem to approach your martial arts training in a similar way to myself - I too have The Tao of Jeet Kune Do and Bruce Lee's Fighting Method; I've used them quite considerably when adapting techniques and suchlike to fit in with my own personal fighting 'style'. I'm forever examining fighters and looking for little bits that I can try to work into my next session - I would definitely say that I share BL's open minded philosophy about training and experimentation. I'm going to attend a few more classes and try to get a feel for how much scope there would be at this club for that.

Yes, we have a similar attitude. Of course, it doesn't make it exactly easy to train under an instructor who insists that their way is the one to go.

Another bit that I forgot to mention which I found a bit weird (and this is really just a general statement), was being forced to throwing hooks with a verticle fist. I throw jabs with a vertical fist sometimes and can appreciate that it is structurally stronger than the horizontal fist jab, but the hook I didn't particularly like.

I also use both methods for straight punches, depending on the target and other factors. For some targets, actually a 45° or even 135° angle is best; the latter I adopted from certain Kung Fu styles, it's called a corkscrew punch.

Talking about hooks, I also prefer to throw them with a horizontal fist. Boxers generally do them like that, to my knowledge. I know that some martial artists use the vertical fist. I think everybody should do them the way that comes to them most naturally.

 

[The Great Gigsy]

The structure felt strongly aligned, but that's not what I meant by rigid. I meant rigid as in having an unchanging, set approach to dealing with attacks and pre-emptively striking. The class was traditional jkd rather than concepts jkd.
I would have to say that seems a little odd. My sifu will have certain drills that we work and there maybe a particular strike he wants us to use for that training exercise, but from my experience at least have never been told this is the only way to counter attack x or this is the right way to setup an attack.
Anyway, I've only done two hours of it so far, so I've probably misinterpreted a load of stuff.

 

[EddieCyrax]

crawl before you walk, walk before you run...

1st class. In order to begin to explore and expand, you will need a solid understanding of the basics. Just because certain stance feels uncomfortable now does not mean it will after many hours/ months/years of training.

Remember Mr. Lee had an extensive MA background prior to developing JKD. He had the basic structure already ingrained within him which allowed him to expand.

Not sure what you are looking to get out of your training, or you short/long term goals. Most MA's are designed to be a lifetime journey, not a short term fix.

 

[Star Dragon]

I thought this might interest you.

Dealing with thai kicks in the JKD stance - Jeet Kune Do Talk

 

[Dinkydoo]

I thought this might interest you.

Dealing with thai kicks in the JKD stance - Jeet Kune Do Talk

Thanks, that was interesting. Lots of discussion about changing your base to be wider, how intercepting may or may not work in that scenario and how JKD might've changed since then if Bruce Lee had still be alive to witness the development of sport based arts since then. I've commited to training at a fighting gym at the minute so JKD in this format isn't something I'm looking to pursue presently, but I will always train with the progressive kind of mentality and philosophy BL had.