Jkd thoughts on this?

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hapki-bujutsu

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thoughts on this article?

STAND-UP FIGHTING
- VS -
GROUND FIGHTING
To begin with, the use of the word versus (abbreviated to VS) is inappropriate, because the dictionary defines "Versus" as "Against". In order to participate in Stand-up fighting you must be standing and in order to do ground fighting you must be on the ground, so they can't be against each other.

That may seem a little tongue in cheek but it was meant to be. The real point I'm trying to make is that they are two distinctly different kinds of fighting and should be thought of as such.

Those who teach ground fighting love to quote the statistic, that 95% of all fights end up on the ground. I would agree if they said that 95% of all of their fights wind up on the ground but to say that 95% of all fights end up on the ground, I feel, is far too broad a statement.

If you are talking about a trained boxer fighting a non trained person I doubt seriously the percentage would be, even remotely, near that figure. If you're talking about a trained kick-boxer fighting a trained boxer, again, I doubt the figure is anywhere near accurate. If you are talking about a Karateka against either of the two aforementioned fighters, again I doubt the fight would go to the ground and if it did you can be confident they'd both regain their feet as soon as possible, as would two Karateka fighting each other. Why? Because we are trained stand-up fighters.

Now, what happens if the fight does go to the ground? Would it be advantageous to have ground fighting training? Of course it would! Why would anyone think otherwise. If a stand-up fighter finds himself on the ground against a trained ground fighter, is he at a disadvantage? Of course he is! If the UFC has taught us nothing else, it has certainly illustrated that point clearly enough.

On the other hand, what if the ground fighter finds himself on the ground happily doing his thing when a second opponent comes up and kicks him in the head? Not a good place to be. Would he have been better off on his feet and more mobile? Definitely! Another question comes to mind. How many fights do you imagine have started on the ground? I have a feeling the answer is, very few. Ever see two guys crawl across a bar room floor and start fighting? (More tongue in cheek.)

So, if in all probability, the fight is going to start standing up, that's where your first training should be! The fight should also end there..... for you.....not him.....he should end up on the ground.... alone.....you get to go home.

Logically, ground fighting has it's place and now that it's becoming more popular and more people have been trained in it, there's an even greater necessity for a stand-up fighter to avail himself of supplemental ground training. It's also nice to know you can end the fight right then and there without having to get back up.

Now comes the hard part. Where do you get this ground training? Unless you happen to live in a metropolitan area you're probably going to have to rely on video. Therein lies the problem. We've trained with the people who have trained with the people and we've investigated and analyzed the most popular videos. Unfortunately if these techniques aren't done properly your opponent could be lying there ordering lunch for all the discomfort you're causing him. This type of training verifiably requires a hands-on approach. Until you can be tutored during the actual application of a technique, with your partner acknowledging your effectiveness, you're chances of doing it correctly are less than fair. There's another very negative aspect to this kind of training. If you do it correctly in the first place and you have no experience or background it's all too easy to go just a little too far and crank your partners joint out of it's socket. He'll spend the next several months recovering at great expense both physically and financially and you loose a partner. The whole thing seems to be a catch 22 situation.

The Karate Connection has researched this conundrum at length. In the final analysis we came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be practical to do it on video the way we have done our system, because of the hands-on necessity. I guess Ed Parker put it best when he said, "To hear is to disbelieve, to see is to be deceived.....feeling is believing!" I wish I had a buck for every time I heard him say that.

We considered the situation from every possible angle and couldn't see any way of truly teaching ground fighting, no matter who the Instructor was going to be and we had some great offers from some great people. It still came out, if he can't be there with you to physically move your bodies into the proper positions, all he'd be doing is demonstrating something and we would have no idea if you were really getting or not, so we decided to leave it alone. That way, at least we would never be responsible for people thinking they've learned something they really had not. The worse combination there is, is over confident and under trained.

I have experimented in Kenpo by physically moving my students with hands-on prompting and found it was actually counterproductive. Our moves can be better learned without touching the student. We can visually observe when they have it and are doing it correctly. It's very evident to us, unlike the ground fighting training. So, as much as I wish I had better news for you, you're on your own out there, when it comes to that kind of education, at least for now.

One final observation on this subject. You're going to get hurt, It will happen, count on it. Hopefully, it will only be a hurt as opposed to an injury. I know the dictionary gives each of those words as a synonym for the other but I have a slightly different feeling for them. A hurt goes away in a short time. You rub it or shake it off and it goes away, An injury requires stitches, x-rays, setting, surgery, crutches, doctors and or hospitals. I've been hurt lots of times but in all these years in Kenpo, injured only twice, (stitches and an x-ray) and then once within the few months I participated in ground fighting, (Orthopedic doctor, crutches and a knee brace) but I'm mostly healed now and I can't wait to get back to the ground. It's just something I enjoy. Go figure. However, this time I'll be more careful. That big black knee brace with the steel braces up the sides, I now have to wear whenever I workout, will act as a constant reminder.
 
OP
M

Mormegil

Guest
Just my little comment:

I think the biggest advantage that ground fighter's tend to have over stand up fighter's is the fact that they can train, without protective gear, at just about full speed, without causing serious injury. This allows for more realistic training (in the context of an actual ground fight). They develop sensitivity, muscle memory, confidence, etc. You know when you put the lock on, because your partner starts tapping. While stand up fighting, you don't know if your simulated strike, or padded punch would have been a KO or not.

Too bad I hate training ground fighting. Luckally for me, I don't plan to get into a fight, and aren't doing this for purely self defense reasons.
 
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IFAJKD

Guest
I don't believe that the stats are as slanted as we once were made to believe for fights ending up on the ground. HOWEVER. a good ground fighter will get the takedown the majority of the times. So many people are taught to believe in the one shot knock out or other fantacies of attacking multiple opponents by striking one then the other and so forth......BB mag still prints these articles.
Ground fighting can be trained easily and safely. I hope you continue to look if you are at all interested. Many JKD Instructors train it somewhat differently from a traditional Jujitsu class. This all being said the ground is NOT a place to be in a street fight. Your ability to survive it and get back to your feet again is dependent on how you train it.
In one class I taught a bar fight drill with multiple opponents, beer bottles, pool cues, buddies all of it, and it all went to the ground on my cue. From there EVERYONE (heavily trained in standup fighting) tried to submit their opponent RATHER than to get back to their feet. Their mind set was to grapple for submission when in this situation they should have fought to get to their feet.
Personally I do not buy into the one style vs the other...It is all about the right tool for the right job. From there it comes down to how many tools you have in YOUR tool box.
Happy training...Just my thoughts.
 

MA-Caver

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Originally posted by IFAJKD
(edit) Personally I do not buy into the one style vs the other...It is all about the right tool for the right job. From there it comes down to how many tools you have in YOUR tool box.
Happy training...Just my thoughts.
Amen is all I can say to that... amen!
 
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IFAJKD

Guest
Not at all sure what you are implying but I assure you that I DO understand and teach it very well thank you. Regardless of the SBG philosophy of Matt, mixing ring and street has varied and mixed results. But mixing the ring even NHB (which is not really NHB BTW) is NOT JKD in any shape or form. Please though, I do not wish to argue this or ANY point. that fight has been fought over and over. Just know your audiance B4 you suggest they are the ones that don't understand. I have done this now well over 30 years and have heard it all.
Train well. Live right
 
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Shiatsu

Guest
You obviously need to re-read some of Bruce Lee's thoughts. SBG is going right along the lines of what he was getting at. 30 years in a job doesn't mean that you know it all, same goes with the martial arts.
 
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Shiatsu

Guest
Your post is well placed on one account Don D, and that is the fact that the only measure of progress is performance, period. Not accumulation of technique.
This is an obvious truth.
Now the question becomes. . .how do you measure your performance? How do you measure your performance Don D? You said fighting, not Vale Tudo? Please explain how you measure that? are you going to hit the bars and beat up some drunk frat boys? Are you going to take on that bad *** gas station attendant that couldn't run a half mile without falling over dead because he smokes two packs a day? How do you measure performance in the realm of "streetfighting" which is in and of itself a meaningless concept!
Test yourself against real fighters, athletes. Boxers, wrestlers, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys. . .now you can measure your performance! Where would 99.9% of JKD people be (yes that includes all the original JKD people) in such a performance based test? I submit to you that they would be on their back staring up at the sky. ..after being beaten to a bloody pulp by one of then there "sport" or vale tudo guys.
YES, performance is the only true test. Increased performance is the only measure of progress. . .AND performance against a real fighter, an athlete, is what matters.Eye boinks and kicks to the nuts will not save you if you have no background in boxing, wrestling, or Brazilian jiu-jitsu. If you dont believe me stop by the Gym here in Portland and try it. Thats reality!
In regards what JKD is or is not. As Krishnamurti often said. . "The word is not the thing!" Most 'vale tudo' guys I know (damn those sport guys again) easily grasp what its all about. The simple sayings borrowed by Bruce Lee from the likes of Krishnamurti, Allen Watts, and others, that seem so cryptic to the "Martial Artists", are easily grasped by fighters. Because the word is not the thing. To know JKD is to do it. If you are not a fighter (read test yourself against real fighters, read 'sport') then you will probably never get it. And thats okay, because in that case. . you were not meant to.
-Matt
 
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Shiatsu

Guest
Here is another one.


The simple truth is that what "is" the reality of combat knows no national or cultural boundaries. If you place any two Kung Fu, Karate, Jun Fan, Silat, Kali, Hapkido, etc... practitioners into a cage and tell them that can only strike at each other then what you would see would resemble bad kickboxing. If you told them they could do anything they wanted then it would resemble a bad vale tudo or NHB match. A punch is a punch, a kick a kick, an elbow an elbow, a knee a knee, a choke a choke, a throw a throw, an armlock an armlock. It doesn't matter what part of the world it comes from. If you don't spar, if your training is not "alive" but instead a series of dead patterns, and "flow drills", then what you do will not translate in what is actual fighting.
The revolution of freedom in martial arts begun by the maverick Bruce Lee continues at the Straight Blast Gym


At the Straight Blast Gym we don't train to fight the way we think it should be. Instead we train for what it "is". Free yourselves from the conformity of style, terminology, and ritual, spar against real opponents, and always train "alive", and so can you. In the end that's really what JKD is supposed to be.
 
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Shiatsu

Guest
This one makes a lot of sense. How do you teach compared to this?:asian:




Give me an example.... I still dont see that clear of a distinction.
Okay.... when I visit with JKD people, they will often talk about "training". Lets get together and "train"... etc. Okay, cool... then you get together and train and you discover that their version of training is learning more techniques.... they want to hook up and learn a new trap, or a new lock, or a new flow drill..... then practice a little.... and go home. The "Instructor" fosters this by teaching techniques every class at his "kwoon" or "dojo" or "academy" demonstrating these with his most cooperative student, so he looks really good.... the quote un-qoute "good form" .and then having the students practice this new "move" in one or another dead pattern..... and then they all write the stuff down in their burgeoning notebook, and go home. To me thats NOT training.... it may be instruction.... poor instruction... but it is in no way training. Now compare that with heading into a "Gym", warming up... practicing whatever it is you are working on that day against a partner who offers progressive resistance in an alive manner.... having a coach watch and participate with you.... selectively offering pointers that will help your performance... and instead of going home with a giant notebook, you go home with clothes drenched in sweat, and a tired body. Thats training..... that environment is created and maintained by a coach.... not an Instructor.
 
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IFAJKD

Guest
Matt: Not sure who Don D is but I really don't want to argue this point. It HAS been beat to the ground. I have heard you spout before. The reality is there are great street fighters out there who do NOT train and to minimize the effects of fighting such a person is poor juju. Indeed a ring fighter can fight at times out in the street, this happens to favor the well experienced person more so. Funny how I always hear ing fighters bring up an example of out of shape "untrained or "drunk" people they meet or would run into. Many out there buddy who are far from that. and AND some of the %^&* they are training in prisons will take YOUR head off as well. You may be a bit surprised.
This is always my trap and I don't want to start this...or at least continue going on with it. Matt, some of what you say IS right on. Some is not. No, 30 years doesn't mean answers to anything really. Nor does fame or popularity. Your formula is working...great. Most of the ring people I have seen do not get it. Not even close. I have trained and seen many many good fighters too. Yes, you could take a Dave Menne and he would be VERY functional in a street or the ring but he has trained both aspects well. Here it comes down to the person AND the methods trained. There are varibles in al of this that go beyond training. Training correctly IS HOWEVER very important. drilling is Not and answer to making anything functional. I agree. sparring is crucial. I agree, sparring in all ranges is crucial. IT IS ASTLL DIFFERENT more often than not from the ring....from the street and from reality. with this I sign off.....Not wanting to be here in the first place. Good luck Matt. You deserve the success you are getting.
(I assume this is MT. )
 

Marvin

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Good Afternoon everybody, IFAJKD, I don't believe that Shiatsu is Matt Thornton. I believe Shiatsu SBG posts are just cut and pastes from the SBG web site to show the SBG philosophy.
Marvin
 
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IFAJKD

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That would make sense. BUT These things are traps for me and I need to steer clear of it. JKD is so SO political and I hate that part. My personality is such that I just engage. sorry.
 
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Shiatsu

Guest
No I am not Matt, I just cut and pasted those from his page, to get my point across.
 
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IFAJKD

Guest
I will leave you with this one thought......Matt Thorton, Paul Vunak, even Dan Inosanto or Bruce Lee did NOT find THE truth in these combative arts....Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto never ever claimed to. Thorton, Vunak and many others certainly did not. Do not confuse popularity with insight, fame and success with realization....FACT is that they have discovered some of what works for them and as with ALL JKD people, what it looks like today and what it looks like tomorrow will be different. Don't think for a moment that ther are not others in other arts who haven't done this same thing. They have changed their arts and training to make it effective. JKD is a journey, a way of looking at things as much as it is anything else. A pair of specticles if you will, by which you view everything you look at. These specticles are akin to freedom and interpretations are all unique. Matt has not done anything new...He is in the right place at the right time and he attached JKD to NHB with moderate success commercially, Paul Vunak attached JKD to street and military training and has built a group of people on a fast track to training functional JKD. Dan Inosanto has gone his own direction with Filipino arts and others. Perhaps the greatest martial artist today he continues to open doors for everyone. I have done both ring and street as well as correctional (artificial settings) where the threat is different, the required skills are different, the training is different and none will help the other without the proper experience and attitude. Experience does count for a GREAT deal if trained well, and in the end it is still each of us and our own expression of what we have interpreted JKD to be.
"Aliveness" is just another word and nothing new to JKDC people. A play on a concept and method that has exsisted since JKD became JKD and before that even. I prefer to call it functionality. Others call it different terms. This is not a Matt concept but a concept that goes way back......In fact the Filipino martial artists have been incorpotating this concept for a life time and beyond as well as Thai boxers. Here is what I see in good fighters and Instructors....
Be the best you can be.
explore
do not underestimate that gas station attendent, drunk, gang banger, convict or anyone....... or they can take your head off.
leave room for others to express different thoughts.
Grow
Do not claim to have "the way"
train attributes over technique
have respect
have a code (for you) (without it you are nothing)
don't believe everything you read or see
find out for yourself.....
thats all I guess. Again I don't mean to start controversy.. It seems impossible in JKD as the nerves are many and raw.
 

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