JKD: Minimum Curriculum?

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arnisador

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I agree...perhaps they wwant to acknowledge Bruce Lee's influence on their thoughts. (I'm being charitable here.) I feel the result in that case is indeed probably not JKD.
 

James Kovacich

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Boy this thread is becoming a good reflection of how I feel. But by todays standards we are all right and wrong at the same time. Can't forget Bruces 2 cents:

"If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or from "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it."
I think he had great in-sight to the future problems and may have "started" to fix it in advance but got "called away."
 

tiburon

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That's a good point. But they do to him what most religious people do to their holy books. They forget about it as a whole and take only what they like. So in essence they are doing what he did but at the same time they reject him too. They only read the whole absorb what you can statement and then reject the part you just quoted. But hey, that's just people.

Vic
 

Kframe

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I have only a passing knowledge of JKD. My question is, it seams so opposed to itself. On one hand you have JKD the style, and then on the other hand JKD the thought process. How can JKD be the style with no style, if it clearly has a style? How can one apply what is usefull if they are limited to only a few styles to choose from? I think modern MMA is falling into the same problem. People only draw on a few styles.

Honestly, being just a lay person, based on what I have read, I personally interpreted apply what is usefull, to its literal ends. Case in point, I started in boxing, now do bjj and kickboxing with it. I have since started adapting Karate techniques as well. Im coming up with my Own system, for me.

There is a JKD place about 1 hour from my home and they said that Juan Fan was Bruce Lees personal expression of JKD, not the only way of JKD. Here is there website.
http://www.wetoskey.com/
 

simplicity

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What is JKD?
I'll keep it simple which is a JKD principle in itself...

"IT" can't be defined, you know when you feel and/or see "IT"... "IT" will never be the same in a real fight, because the moment has passed... if someone asked me, "can you do that again"... My answer would no, because the moment has passed.... Something to thing about, as I always say... :)
 

Thunder Foot

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If simplicity is truly at the forefront of this art/concept/style/philosophy/whatever, why does one need 10 different styles in order to try an be simple? Why has researching of a multitude of arts become synonymous with discovering efficiency? I'm not in agreement with this. In today's environment, we have become so far removed from the techniques themselves, that we give power to the labels placed on them. The kung fu way, savate way, Thai way, etc. When there can truly only be one way... the way it is.
I was taught and likewise believe that Bruce looked to move away from these limitations of "techniques", ultimately toward expressing himself outside of these descriptions of this or that way of doing things, meanwhile staying true to his philosophy of simplicity. We can only punch and kick in do many ways as human beings so why not learn to kick and punch etc. completely and totally, devoid of this or that way of doing it? In this frame of thinking, what has Bruce done that is truly outside his Gung Fu training?
 

Transk53

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Basic minimum requirements..............Interesting thought. Basically because Bruce Lee died leaving us with only logic and speculation. I Personally taught basic following from a JKD concepts/FMA approach. I would list the following:

Kicking Range:. stop kick, low line kicking, oblique kick, savate style round kick, hook kick, inside and outside crescent kick, side kick, side thrust, front snap, Thai round kick, axe kick, include side knee, side up knee, straight knee flying knee hook knee,

Boxing range: jab, straight punch, cross, hook, shovel hook , upper cut, back fist spinning backfist, hammer fist, straight blast, morphed blast, eye jab (very very important) knife hand (used on soft tissue ie throat, groin etc) overhead punch

Trapping range: pak sao, lop sao, sut sao, biljee, kwon sao, bong sao, jut sao, gum sao, tan sao, gunting, many many destructions such as sipa, siko, heiata, elbows knees and headbutts, eye gouges, bites, wrenches, breaks, manipulations, clinching, shivers and (dumog type) pushes and pulls.

Ground fighting: mount side mount, guard, half guard, north south, side headlock, transistions, chokes, submissions, falls, stomps, bites, gouges, breaks

Weapons: single stick, double stick, stick and knife, single knife, double knife, interceptions, deflections, passes, disarms, many drills,

Sparring: weapons all double vs single, double vs double, knife vs stick, etc it goes on and on. empty hand, envrionmental, bottles, pool cues, helmet training with the blast, etc. It is all trained.

Concepts: five ways of attack, economy of motion, interceptions, closing the gap, attribute development, spatial awareness, line familurization, speed, power, timming, distance, sight, legal,

This was my cirruculum for openers. This is what would be covered your first year. It's just mine. influenced by people like Vunak, Inosanto, O'Melia and others. I know it's a concept type of approach, I know that Bruce Lee did not teach many thingas here and I know that others do it differently. There are many good people out there and many not so good. I believe that anything can be made to be functional if trained correctly. The essence of JKD is in it's function not it's techniques. Not sure if this adds any clarification or not. good luck in the search and Arnisador......Glad to hear you are still posting these days. Much respect for you.

:asian:

Thanks for posting this and for Thunder Foot for starting. Very informative :)
 

Blindside

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We can only punch and kick in do many ways as human beings so why not learn to kick and punch etc. completely and totally, devoid of this or that way of doing it?

A TKD guy kicks differently than a Muay Thai guy and differently than a Savate guy. How do you kick? Yeah, I get it, a "kick is just a kick" but you still need to define the technique so that you can teach it. You can't go to a beginner and say "do a kick and make it come in from the side, just do whatever, a kick is just a kick." There has to be structure to the training to teach the technique to maximize its effect. Naming the methodology of where it comes from doesn't take away from the "simplicity" of the kick.
 

Thunder Foot

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I agree in terms of beginners learning the tools/nucleus etc. making a starting point. But when we are talking about applying a principle to this or that method, we are talking about something beyond that... a level of understanding that comes from the liberation of a one way of doing it. I just don't think separate but equal is truly liberation and that's what you have when you continue to maintain the idea of doing this or that way. This is not simplicity.
 

wingchun100

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Very hard to answer correctly. So "correct" may be in the eyes of the beholder. I think the biggest "pushers" of the pure concept without the underlying art are the self taught newbies that justify "their" self taught JKD.

JKD does have an underlying structure which is used to teach the concept/art of JKD. We can borrow from other arts and still follow the concepts but these other arts in their "whole" do not fall within the concept.

Most first and second generation JKD students learned Jun Fan. I don't think that Dan Inosanto would certify anyone that he did not "expose" to Jun Fan. His student (second generation) Paul Vunak learned Jun Fan. Why was this "art of no art" included in the curriculum? Because it falls within the "concepts" and it is a "proven" method of teaching JKD.

From what I've seen most of the third and fourth generation students today teach less Jun Fan and some teach none. So is their curriculum JKD? Yes, because they went through the "process" of learning JKD and were given "approval" by their instructor.


I think that Bruce must have known that eventually their would be little of his original art left but I can't imagine how the "art of no art" can be continually taught (when it is only a concept), it is quite often very differant and usually always has the same name.:D

:asian:

It certainly would have been interesting to see how his art developed with his age, as his abilities changed. Would he still be able to punch as fast today as he could when he died? Probably not, so how would he have compensated?
 
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arnisador

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Age, yes. But not just changes to his abilities--many JKDers have added groundfighting in a serious way. Would he have done so as that came on the scene in a big way via BJJ? Things do keep happening!
 

wingchun100

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Age, yes. But not just changes to his abilities--many JKDers have added groundfighting in a serious way. Would he have done so as that came on the scene in a big way via BJJ? Things do keep happening!

Ah yes, he DID die before the Gracies became a household name. Interesting point!
 

Makalakumu

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In my experience, JKD has a similar philosophy to MMA but it's not contained to the rule set for competition. This means you can sort of tailor what you know to who you are and what you like to do. At the club that we practiced, we worked A LOT of weapons because that's what the coach liked to do. For empty hand, we practiced Thai boxing, Silat, Wing Chun, catch wrestling, and jujutsu. None of it was as high level if you trained those things exclusively, but all together it was a very interesting package.
 

Thunder Foot

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Just for the record, Bruce never actually named anything he taught as "Jun Fan", this was the name of his school coined after his Chinese name "Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute" where he taught Wing Chun. Tim Tackett, has an excellent audio interview where he gives his personal account of training there and what was taught and clears up the fallacy of "Jun Fan Gung Fu" as it's own inherent fighting system. :)
 

Thunder Foot

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Separate but equal... is this liberation? flowing from one art to the other... is this totality? Simplicity?
 

James Kovacich

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It is if it's the simplest, most direct movements. Also, if your just using a technique or sequence from another source, your not really flowing from one art to another.

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Transk53

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For some reason where I am, the Sifu likes to use spinning back kicks. I feel a right pillock sometimes as I know I simply will not be able to master them. Could not do it years ago and nothing will change now. He holds two Black belts in TKD, one a 4th Dan and the other a 1st Dan. I can understand that mindset, use what you have got, but I am struggling with the notion that it should in JKD. I am not the only one who thinks that way, but I am still there to learn and if I don't like it etc.
 

Thunder Foot

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Flowing from one art to another is still..... moving from one art to another art isn't it?
I don't recall Bruce having to flow from one to another.... he could perform one strike which embodied the essence of his research. Are these one in the same? Or merely the same in one's view?
 
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