JKD Chi Sao Vs. Wing Chun Chi Sao

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

I practice both Chi Sao (sticking hands) and Chi Gerk (sticking legs). In the beginning, I learned Chi Sao from the basic WCK goat stance, or high horse training stance (YCKYM), without using any footwork. Later on, I learned a JKD variation of Chi Sao performed the exact same way, except from a JKD ready stance, or phasic bent knee stance (BJ), in which there was more movement. However, as I started to progress in martial arts, I learned more WCK stances and footwork. Over time, there were fewer and fewer differences between them. I would say the only difference I see now is that JKD places more weight on the front leg, while WCK places more weight on the back leg. But even then there are times when both JKD and WCK will use a 50/50 neutral stance, so I guess it really just depends on who you're training with. In the style that I practice now, both stances are included and we are allowed to use whatever stance we want, because Chi Sao and Chi Gerk are still practiced the same way regardless of style.

 

[wingchun100]

I see. So are you saying in your WC chi sau you never use your legs? Or that you've only done chi sau in YJKYM and not in any of the other stances in WC/VT?

No, it starts in YGKYM. We move around from there, but in JKD you are in the strong side forward stance to begin with.

 

[Thunder Foot]

No, it starts in YGKYM. We move around from there, but in JKD you are in the strong side forward stance to begin with.

Ok, I didn't realize the emphasis of the starting position. So are you saying that by starting chi sau in any position other that YJKYM, one is no longer practicing WC?

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

I learned t do Chi Sao initially in a JKD school. We practiced it in the YGKYM stance. From what I have seen and crossing hands with various people in Wing Chun and lineages... there really is no difference. We also trained in Chi Gerk. Also practiced being rooted and times when you might not want to be so rooted. We also practiced Chi Sao in the Bai Jong stance. 50/'50 weight with front leg bent and rear leg bent. Rear heal raised. (Typical JKD stance). The only variation to the stance was that the shoulders was squared up vs. being angled. And in this stance there is more movement with footwork. Slight angles, progression forward and back etc. It helps in training the ability to stay within a distance that you can stick to your opponent. I have seen some schools push really aggressively into one another.
Basically... I think Chi Sao is Chi Sao. I don't think there is a difference between Wing Chun or JKD if it's being done properly and with the intent it was meant for.

 

[wingchun100]

I learned t do Chi Sao initially in a JKD school. We practiced it in the YGKYM stance. From what I have seen and crossing hands with various people in Wing Chun and lineages... there really is no difference. We also trained in Chi Gerk. Also practiced being rooted and times when you might not want to be so rooted. We also practiced Chi Sao in the Bai Jong stance. 50/'50 weight with front leg bent and rear leg bent. Rear heal raised. (Typical JKD stance). The only variation to the stance was that the shoulders was squared up vs. being angled. And in this stance there is more movement with footwork. Slight angles, progression forward and back etc. It helps in training the ability to stay within a distance that you can stick to your opponent. I have seen some schools push really aggressively into one another.
Basically... I think Chi Sao is Chi Sao. I don't think there is a difference between Wing Chun or JKD if it's being done properly and with the intent it was meant for.

I guess the easiest way for me to discover would be to make it to class.

 

[FighterTwister]

I practice both Chi Sao (sticking hands) and Chi Gerk (sticking legs). In the beginning, I learned Chi Sao from the basic WCK goat stance, or high horse training stance (YCKYM), without using any footwork. Later on, I learned a JKD variation of Chi Sao performed the exact same way, except from a JKD ready stance, or phasic bent knee stance (BJ), in which there was more movement. However, as I started to progress in martial arts, I learned more WCK stances and footwork. Over time, there were fewer and fewer differences between them. I would say the only difference I see now is that JKD places more weight on the front leg, while WCK places more weight on the back leg. But even then there are times when both JKD and WCK will use a 50/50 neutral stance, so I guess it really just depends on who you're training with. In the style that I practice now, both stances are included and we are allowed to use whatever stance we want, because Chi Sao and Chi Gerk are still practiced the same way regardless of style.

Honestly, NO difference at all!

Chi Sao - is - Chi Sao ........ its the base frame of JKD rooted in Wing Chun and devolved from the Southern Shaolin Temple Monks training on the 108 wooden dummies final test chamber, and its labeled as an exercise drill for trapping hands or aka "Sticky Hands"!

If I may illustrate using these videos..............

The differences you might see are only due the to difference in the partner's body frame

E.g.

Height, Length of arms or if they have a tendency to raise the arms covering the face or be at a more confident arm level at shoulder height, the drill is the same!

So nothing exceeding the original form of the actual drill concept!

Side note:- By the way they should remake that movie and produce a modern version - ( Shaolin Wooden Men (1976) )

 

[FighterTwister]

I practice both Chi Sao (sticking hands) and Chi Gerk (sticking legs). In the beginning, I learned Chi Sao from the basic WCK goat stance, or high horse training stance (YCKYM), without using any footwork. Later on, I learned a JKD variation of Chi Sao performed the exact same way, except from a JKD ready stance, or phasic bent knee stance (BJ), in which there was more movement. However, as I started to progress in martial arts, I learned more WCK stances and footwork. Over time, there were fewer and fewer differences between them. I would say the only difference I see now is that JKD places more weight on the front leg, while WCK places more weight on the back leg. But even then there are times when both JKD and WCK will use a 50/50 neutral stance, so I guess it really just depends on who you're training with. In the style that I practice now, both stances are included and we are allowed to use whatever stance we want, because Chi Sao and Chi Gerk are still practiced the same way regardless of style.

Yeah Chi Gerk allot of people don't talk about that its always Hubud or Chi-Sao.........

Good post thanks!

 

[Bino TWT]

Actually there is because, as I said in the original post, JKD does chi sao with the strong side forward, while WC does it in the basic horse stance (the one seen in Sil Lum Tao).

Yes and no. In JKD Bai Jong, it is pretty standard to be strong side forward. In Wing Tsun Bai Jong, depending on lineage (and individual practitioner), sometimes they are squared up and sometimes they are strong side forward as well. But this is only a guard position. Chi Sao is STICKING from contact; you are not sticking if you are in a shifted stance and can't reach your opponent with the back hand.

Chi Sao is an organic flowing thing, and one should not remain in a stationary position. There should be no fixed position. The Poon Sao position (the most common one seen that is used by the Yip Man branch) is only a starting position, and even that isn't set in stone. Often times, Chi Sao is initiated from no contact, so one can also train bridging and intercepting.

Honestly the difference I generally see between Wing Tsun and JKD Chi Sao is that a lot of JKD practitioners do not have the Wing Tsun foundation and lack the depth of skills and reflexes that comes from years of Chi Sao training, so they're just kinda winging it. Some JKD schools have absolutely no Wing Tsun in them whatsoever, and are basically just a stitched up MMA that's being called JKD, and their Chi Sao is sub-par for even beginner levels.

*Side note: The SNT stance is a training tool for beginners. You don't stand in YJKYM and fight. The farther you get in the system, the less you are restricted by the rules of the basics. If you see 2 high level practitioners, one WT and one JKD, sparring or Chi Sao'ing, it can be very difficult to tell them apart at times.

In higher level Chi Sao, legs (Chi Gerk) and even grappling comes into play. It's all fair game. It's good to be clear with your partner about what you wish to train and establish some rules before you engage though, so they don't get mad when you kick them or take them down.

I teach both Wing Tsun & JKD, and also do Escrima and Tai Chi. There are many overlaps in the drills/training (Chi Sao, Hubud, Tui Shou, etc), and they can all be used with or against each other.

BTW, nice to see you here Steve. I recognized the name in your website link. We chat on FB. I just posted a Chi Sao video in the Wing Chun section here the other day, check it out.