Jab question

[JPR]

I have a question on the form of a jab. On a lunging jab, I know that the hand moves first (“the hammer principle”), then the feet move. The hand lands on its target prior to the front foot landing so that you transfer your momentum into your target, not the floor. But what about a jab when you are already in or near boxing range? Do you still initiate the jab with the hand, or is it proper to take an adjusting step then jab?

JPR

 

[Touch Of Death]

Time the foot simultanious with the drop or hammer. Then execute the thrust portion of the jab. Another way of looking at it is to adjust your footing while your upper body relaxes prior to jabbing but I really feel the entire mechanism can all begin at the same time.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

What is the hammer principle? I am curious. :asian:

 

[AC_Pilot]

Time your final step or shuffle-stomp to coincide with the beginning of the torque part of your punch. In other words you should be a half inch to an inch at least into the target with your jab, beginning the torso/fist twist before the added power and reach of the footwork is fully included. Your foot is already moving of course. I say a semi- stomp because this can add to the torque and your base if done correctly. Your lead foot really slides forward a bit also. It's a hard to understand principle but it helps to understand that it is done crisply and abruptly, much like a Savate kick, penetrating into the target.


One more hint: Do this with different shoes and it will feel altogether different. Train especially with the street shoes you most often wear, on real surfaces like concrete or a smooth floor. In my case I have so many different types of footwear it's difficult to do this but I try. A full winter military boot feels completely different than a smooth soled dress shoe or a pair of hikers. And concrete will give you different adhesion than a smooth hardwood floor. That extra inch you are off as a result will make all the difference.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

AC - what do you mean by the "torque part" of the punch? Do you mean rotation or something different? Are you describing it after you actually connect

you should be a half inch to an inch at least into the target with your jab

or do you mean into range of the opponent?

 

[still learning]

Hello, There was a study done on the punch/jab, testing the power. This one study pointed out three parts for full power. Lifting the heel,raising the leg was one third power , the next was twisting the hips and shoulders (torque) was another one third power and lastly shooting out the arm and hands to tarket was equal to another one third. All three was needed for a 100% full power punch/jab.

Try just punching with the arm and hand only then add the next one, then the lifting of the foot, see if you can feel the difference in the power of the punch/jab?

In our training for jabs (right hand stance) you will be on the toes of front foot as you jab. Punches with rear hand you will be on the toes of rear foot, also the whole bodys turns too. .......everyone may have different way.....Aloha

 

[AC_Pilot]

Hi ya mouse

Well, since we tend to start out in a defensive guard position from Western boxing, to protect the chin, one or both fists are held as if you were holding a phone to your ear, vertical fist style. This also protects the temples. From this position or even the low By-Jong stance, as seen here by Bruce :
http://www.geocities.com/hellasjeetkunedo/stance.html
The fists will start out close to vertical.. this can translate directly into the straight blast, which is a flurry of vertical punches as you run down their center line, looking for an opening to add destructions, but we are talking about isolating the lead jab here and so when that vertical lead jab goes out there, to gain maximum distance for your punch, and to get the most impact, you rotate your fist to near or full horizontal, as you near impact, leaning/tilting to the other side of your body a bit, following thru with the "wrist twist" as you drive thru your target. As you hit you throw in a snappy final twist, it's very effective at imparting damage and energy. All the while if you have the right posture and footwork, you are turning your entire upper torso into your opponent, and twisting as far down as your knees, slightly, to increase range and power even more. You keep the other hand in a guard position, ready to strike. It's very effective.. and the withdrawl is every bit as fast if not faster, since you simply reverse the process.

In the process of returning the jab hand to guard position you can use your "live hand" or rear cross for instance. very quickly since you are already in motion for that follow-through. This description is very basic without throwing in fight variables.

By the way I am ambidexterous as far as lead.. I can change in the middle of a fight without warning, when it's practical as far as footwork, it's very disconcerting to an opponent, and I credit Philipino martial arts and hand weapons training for bringing out this latent ability. I highly recommend Kali/Arnis/Escrima


Here's a great site with some info on JKD basic theory: http://bruce.planetjitsu.com/fancy_feet.php

 

[achilles]

First off, if you are already in "boxing" or middle range and can reach out and hit the target, then you don't want to lunge since you may jam your punch. However, you should still put your feet into it via pivoting and pushing out of your back foot. Depending on the application, you may or may not move your hand first. I almost always try to move the hand first because it is less telegraphic, but I was taught a version where the hand moves simultaneously with the body when the punch is used as a stop hit, and thus the opponent is doing the work of getting your bodies closer together. I still try to move the hand first though...


The hammer principle deals with starting the punch from the elbow outward using gravity as the impetus of the punch. This is a cursory description at best and I suggest looking into Tim Tackett and Bob Bremmer's teachings if you really want to investigate it deeply. Dan Inosanto has discussed it at an instructor's conference that I attended, but it is generally not brought up very often. It seems to be a method for delivering the punch as non-telegraphically as possible and is a great example of the asympotal nature of perfection in Jeet Kune Do. Having seen the latter men demonstrate this technique, and having struggled with it myself, I believe that it is through this type of training that a Jeet Kune Do man can devote himself to being simple, direct and non-classical for a lifetime.


As far as the timing of the body mechanics of the JKD lead punch, it seems go like this:
1) begin to extend the arm/drop the hammer
2) push w/ the rear leg and kick the front foot forward (push shuffle)
* omit this step if you are already in striking distance
3) twist the back foot along with your hips and shoulders (this should be done simultaneously with step two, but since it is also done in the version without a step I'm giving it its own number)
4) before your foot touches the ground your fist should make impact as you drop your weight onto your opponent's body (be careful not to push)
5) as your foot touches the ground, recover by bringing your fist back on a narrow ark inward back to the on-guard position
I also find it essential to mention that the hand should come out loosly and snap into a fist at impact and relax again upon retraction.

You generally don't want to step and then punch, unless you are doing one of the following:
1) using broken rhythm to punch behind the parry
2) using the punch to induce a stop hit or other counter attack as a means of ABD (throwing garbage to counter his counter)

Torque is martial speak for twisting your body into a punch/kick to get more reach, penetration or momentum into a strike.

As far a fist postion goes, I'm fond of a fist turned slightly diagonal. This is the position used in the later period of JKD and is structurally more sound than either the horizontal or vertical fist and is easy to fire down the centerline.

 

[Touch Of Death]

First off, if you are already in "boxing" or middle range and can reach out and hit the target, then you don't want to lunge since you may jam your punch. However, you should still put your feet into it via pivoting and pushing out of your back foot. Depending on the application, you may or may not move your hand first. I almost always try to move the hand first because it is less telegraphic, but I was taught a version where the hand moves simultaneously with the body when the punch is used as a stop hit, and thus the opponent is doing the work of getting your bodies closer together. I still try to move the hand first though...


The hammer principle deals with starting the punch from the elbow outward using gravity as the impetus of the punch. This is a cursory description at best and I suggest looking into Tim Tackett and Bob Bremmer's teachings if you really want to investigate it deeply. Dan Inosanto has discussed it at an instructor's conference that I attended, but it is generally not brought up very often. It seems to be a method for delivering the punch as non-telegraphically as possible and is a great example of the asympotal nature of perfection in Jeet Kune Do. Having seen the latter men demonstrate this technique, and having struggled with it myself, I believe that it is through this type of training that a Jeet Kune Do man can devote himself to being simple, direct and non-classical for a lifetime.


As far as the timing of the body mechanics of the JKD lead punch, it seems go like this:
1) begin to extend the arm/drop the hammer
2) push w/ the rear leg and kick the front foot forward (push shuffle)
* omit this step if you are already in striking distance
3) twist the back foot along with your hips and shoulders (this should be done simultaneously with step two, but since it is also done in the version without a step I'm giving it its own number)
4) before your foot touches the ground your fist should make impact as you drop your weight onto your opponent's body (be careful not to push)
5) as your foot touches the ground, recover by bringing your fist back on a narrow ark inward back to the on-guard position
I also find it essential to mention that the hand should come out loosly and snap into a fist at impact and relax again upon retraction.

You generally don't want to step and then punch, unless you are doing one of the following:
1) using broken rhythm to punch behind the parry
2) using the punch to induce a stop hit or other counter attack as a means of ABD (throwing garbage to counter his counter)

Torque is martial speak for twisting your body into a punch/kick to get more reach, penetration or momentum into a strike.

As far a fist postion goes, I'm fond of a fist turned slightly diagonal. This is the position used in the later period of JKD and is structurally more sound than either the horizontal or vertical fist and is easy to fire down the centerline.

I either completely understand the hammer principle, or I am completely missing it. But the context sounds like the same Method (not principle) of hammer grafting into a thrust. The principles would be anchoring and contouring. However I like what I thought I read. :ultracool
Sean

 

[AC_Pilot]

Good explanation by Achilles.. keep in mind that this basic technique comes from Western fencing, and was developed for the forward thrust with the rapier.. we simply adapt the foot work and body work for an eye jab or punch, etc.. but it can be used for a thrust with a weapon as well, a universal, basic technique.

The rear hand in fencing was reserved for the Main Gauche' or long slender dagger.. in open hand fighting it's the cross from boxing.

 

[Flatlander]

I have a question on the form of a jab. On a lunging jab, I know that the hand moves first (“the hammer principle”), then the feet move. The hand lands on its target prior to the front foot landing so that you transfer your momentum into your target, not the floor. But what about a jab when you are already in or near boxing range? Do you still initiate the jab with the hand, or is it proper to take an adjusting step then jab?

JPR

I believe that in all jabs, whether from a lunging distance, or a shorter range, the hand must move first, or at least in concert with the lead foot. I tend to always shuffle step with the closer range jab, and try to time it in such a way as the lead foot is still in motion at time of contact. It seems to me that to adjust your foot positioning prior to the jab is ineffecient, and negates the whole point of using the jab, which is to launch a quick entry style attack leading into a straight blast, or to distract while setting up for something else. :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

I believe that in all jabs, whether from a lunging distance, or a shorter range, the hand must move first, or at least in concert with the lead foot. I tend to always shuffle step with the closer range jab, and try to time it in such a way as the lead foot is still in motion at time of contact. It seems to me that to adjust your foot positioning prior to the jab is ineffecient, and negates the whole point of using the jab, which is to launch a quick entry style attack leading into a straight blast, or to distract while setting up for something else. :asian:

That sums it up. I usually say the hands move and the feet follow. A lot of technique, the feet don't move at all but when we change directions, even the slightest bit, our hands always lead.

But with jab, on impact my feet are in concert with my hands.