Is Aikido a martial art?

[K-man]

I have tried to understand this for a long time. May be you can help me on this here. Here is the Aikido clip:

If we compare it with the Judo "Osoto Gari", the "cutting - backward hooking" motion is missing in the Aikido clip.

With the Aikido version, when you enter properly you take your opponent's centre. I've never had to use the hook although I do teach it in Karate and Krav.

If we compare it with the Shuai-Chiao "front cut", both the "cutting - backward hooking" motion and the "forward stepping" motion are missing in the Aikido clip.

What's your opinion on this?

As Chris said it's two totally different MAs. Taught in the way we train it is an internal style so despite the video where Mal is hitting with kokyu, normally we do it with no strength and no strike. The reasoning is that you can always add the strike if required. Despite Judo being 'soft' in theory, I have never seen it trained softly.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Always fun to see Mal in action… I am curious, though, would you class this example clip as "reality based", or is it something else in the class?

Obviously there are only a few guys that he can hit like that but in reality we don't have to. I'm not sure what event was filmed as I wasn't there. But I can say that in all my years training no one has hit me as hard as Mal. However, as I said, we don't have to hit to put guys on the floor. Hitting is the 'reality' if it is required, but the other 'reality' is working with a committed attacker. I was explaining in another thread the difference between different modes of attack but in fact you need to be at a reasonable level to receive this style of attack.
:asian:

 

[Buka]

There are styles that are better suited for me personally, than other styles. It doesn't have anything to do with the style, really, it's me. It's how I move naturally, and how I choose to move. I have been going to a bootload of dojos for a long time. Haven't been to one yet where at some point I didn't say, "Oh, that's nice, I WANT that." If you've been training Martial Arts for a while you can incorporate (steal) almost anything into what you do and how you fight.

I am not suited for Aikido, at least the Aikido around here. But I've been stealing from Aikido for as long as I can remember. (don't plan on stopping anytime soon, either)

Me thinks....if you can't find something in the way another person fights, you ain't looking hard enough. Or maybe you ain't looking at all.

 

[hussaf]

I have tried to understand this for a long time. May be you can help me on this here. Here is the Aikido clip:

If we compare it with the Judo "Osoto Gari", the "cutting - backward hooking" motion is missing in the Aikido clip.

If we compare it with the Shuai-Chiao "front cut", both the "cutting - backward hooking" motion and the "forward stepping" motion are missing in the Aikido clip.

What's your opinion on this?

That's not really a traditional aikido technique, it's more of a hybrid variation.

He's propping the close leg and not letting Uke regain balance, which makes Uke fall. Similar principal in sasae tauri Komi ashi or tai otoshi - blocking their ability to gain balance while guiding Uke to have a need for that balance point.

The aikido guy's upper body looks a little like he's doing aikido's iriminage. He's really not, as he's in front of his uke's hips, it's more like a kokyunage or just a generic throw.

You two of the following to throw someone down: height, width, depth. Aikido and judo generally take care of all three. In O soto gari, you move off uke's center line and behind their hips - width and depth. You load up all their weight on one support leg by pulling their arm down and into our center. At that point you disrupt that balance load point with a seeping leg. In the aikido move iriminage, everything is basically the same, except that back leg. Instead of stepping forward to sweep that close leg, you step across, behind, forward (C step) uke's hips while your chest, armpit and tricep is atop uke's sternum pointed towed uke's far shoulder. Keeping Uke tight to you, your are simply advancing at such a length and angle Uke can't keep balance and falls. while falling you guide him away with your arm.

Generally aikido people have uke's head in their center instead of pulling down uke's arm like in O soto.

Some aikido schools home their arm around uke's neck when throwing.

 

[K-man]

That's not really a traditional aikido technique, it's more of a hybrid variation.

He's propping the close leg and not letting Uke regain balance, which makes Uke fall. Similar principal in sasae tauri Komi ashi or tai otoshi - blocking their ability to gain balance while guiding Uke to have a need for that balance point.

The aikido guy's upper body looks a little like he's doing aikido's iriminage. He's really not, as he's in front of his uke's hips, it's more like a kokyunage or just a generic throw.

You two of the following to throw someone down: height, width, depth. Aikido and judo generally take care of all three. In O soto gari, you move off uke's center line and behind their hips - width and depth. You load up all their weight on one support leg by pulling their arm down and into our center. At that point you disrupt that balance load point with a seeping leg. In the aikido move iriminage, everything is basically the same, except that back leg. Instead of stepping forward to sweep that close leg, you step across, behind, forward (C step) uke's hips while your chest, armpit and tricep is atop uke's sternum pointed towed uke's far shoulder. Keeping Uke tight to you, your are simply advancing at such a length and angle Uke can't keep balance and falls. while falling you guide him away with your arm.

Generally aikido people have uke's head in their center instead of pulling down uke's arm like in O soto.
Some aikido schools home their arm around uke's neck when throwing.

You are right that this is a form of Kokyunage but it is still Iriminage technically. I think if you look carefully you see all of the technique even if it is an advanced form of it. The right foot is moving behind but we don't intentionally touch Uke's leg. Unless you are pushing on the neck he doesn't step back anyway. Depending on the entry the left arm may be resting on Uke's arm but we don't ever grab it, and we don't push against the sternum. Any pressure allows Uke to resist. If you look at the right hand it it turned out to keep weight on the outside unlike Seagal's signature move where he just strikes down, usually on a shorter opponent. As I said earlier, we train internally so as you move in with intent Uke tends to move slightly towards the attack. Broken timing then makes him move back as the anticipated clash doesn't occur and it is pretty much that backward movement that causes him to fall. Mind you, it took me several years to get to the stage I could make that happen consistantly.
:asian:

 

[hussaf]

Sternum is our guide point for orientation (elbow past sternum) as our basic iriminages (sokumen and shomen) aren't done to the head at all. To your point about beginners, from the sidelines it looks a lot like iriminage is done by smashing Uke with your elbow to hand area, so we coach people to try and have their elbow past uke's sternum ( ie centerline, but give them a specific thing to look for) so nage is throwing with their entire body instead of just the arm.

If that guy that technique at my school, everyone would call it iriminage, but by our organizations definition it technically wouldn't be...but that would only be addressed if asked or like during questioning of a black belt exam...more like intra-organizational trivia.

 

[Chris Parker]

Obviously there are only a few guys that he can hit like that but in reality we don't have to. I'm not sure what event was filmed as I wasn't there. But I can say that in all my years training no one has hit me as hard as Mal. However, as I said, we don't have to hit to put guys on the floor. Hitting is the 'reality' if it is required, but the other 'reality' is working with a committed attacker. I was explaining in another thread the difference between different modes of attack but in fact you need to be at a reasonable level to receive this style of attack.
:asian:

Okay… not to take this too far off topic, but nothing there is really anything to do with reality based training, I must say. Hence my question, really… "hard", even what might be seen as "realistic" training doesn't equal reality based training… they really are different things…

So, with that in mind, can you expand on what makes Mal's approach to teaching Aikido "reality based"? I should point out that I don't have any preference for it to be, or not to be, RB-style training… but if it is, I'm curious.

 

[K-man]

Okay… not to take this too far off topic, but nothing there is really anything to do with reality based training, I must say. Hence my question, really… "hard", even what might be seen as "realistic" training doesn't equal reality based training… they really are different things…

So, with that in mind, can you expand on what makes Mal's approach to teaching Aikido "reality based"? I should point out that I don't have any preference for it to be, or not to be, RB-style training… but if it is, I'm curious.

I suppose it is the old answer ... 'it depends'. It depends on how you define RB. My definition is a little loose. I would say it is reality based if the training is such that it is conducted in a way that would transition into street fighting seamlessly if required. Now we don't train scenario stuff so for some that may mean it is not really RB. My definitition is that if you can work your magic on someone who is really trying to hit you, or stop you, then it is a fair way toward reality based. It is still a fair way short of what we do in our Krav, but hey, it leaves most Aikido way behind. We don't do a lot of 'hard'. That's there if you need it. I'm happy to go with the 'realistic' tag if you like. I just spent a week in NZ training with a mob of karate guys. My Aikido stuff slotted in nicely with the training we were doing there.
:asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay. For the record, when you're looking at the categorisation of "reality-based", that's not really what's meant… but, as I said, that's really getting off topic here. Perhaps for a different thread.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's not really a traditional aikido technique, it's more of a hybrid variation.

He's propping the close leg and not letting Uke regain balance, which makes Uke fall.

Let's just talk about the physical "throw" and leave the "style" out of this discussion. When you push your opponent's upper body down, to make him fall, you can

- block/trip his leg while his leg is still on the ground.
- sweep/hook his leg off the ground.

What's the difference here?

When you

- block/trip your opponent's leg, it's easy for your opponent to escape his leg out of your block/trip.
- sweep/hook your opponent's leg off the ground, it's harder for your opponent to escape his leg out of your sweep/hook.

IMO, if your opponent has the same level skill as you have, the more that you can restrict his leg mobility, the better chance that your throw will work on him.

 

[K-man]

Let's just talk about the physical "throw" and leave the "style" out of this discussion. When you push your opponent's upper body down, to make him fall, you can

- block/trip his leg while his leg is still on the ground.
- sweep/hook his leg off the ground.

What's the difference here?

When you

- block/trip your opponent's leg, it's easy for your opponent to escape his leg out of your block/trip.
- sweep/hook your opponent's leg off the ground, it's harder for your opponent to escape his leg out of your sweep/hook.

IMO, if your opponent has the same level skill as you have, the more that you can restrict his leg mobility, the better chance that your throw will work on him.

I think what you have here applies at the base level but not in this case. I don't trip and I don't sweep.
:asian:

 

[Spinedoc]

Depends on the dojo. My Sensei was profoundly influenced by Saito Sensei, and so we have a more Iwama style flavor. While we may not train with hard resistance with beginners, as you advance, the resistance increases and continues to do so.

Again, I can only speak for my dojo. Additionally, the attacks are very prescripted for beginners, but as you advance, there is often variation thrown in.

 

[JP3]

Guys, I just read from Sensei Ellis' O/P to the end of this thread. It's always amazing to me the organic way in which these threads mutate from the O/P to where we end up perhaps 4 pages in or so.

On the end of the thread, I can see the difference in what KFW is saying about the advantage of having uke's limb "hooked" or trapped, if you will, and also the advantage in KM's approach of doing neither, so maybe I know stuff. At the beginning, I've had my own experience with what I'll call "Pooh-Bear" schools with no RB training at all, and in my personal opinion, their people suffer (in a reality sense) from it. But... they may not actually even be aware of the lack. Anyway, go back tot he discussion of iriminage, it's intriguing.