Internal Martial Arts

[Xue Sheng]

Admittedly I have done more Tai Chi than Xingyi and more Xingyi than Bagua. But I came across this today on another website, and I was wondering what other thought about it.

An article that was comparing internal Chinese martial arts and the level of complexity involved to become effective using it for fighting, as it was intended to be used (in other words, punching someone in the head does not necessarily mean proficient). Meaning to be able to use Xingyi in fighting and use it fairly competently it takes at least 3 years of study. Where Tai Chi takes at least 10 years of study to use as it was meant to be used and to use it competently.

Xingyi was compared to elementary school
Bagua was compared to high school
Tai Chi was compared to going to a university

Obviously this would also depend on the quality of training done. Train Xingyi 1 hour per month and obviously you will take longer than 3 years to become proficient, if at all.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I was expecting to read that Tai Chi would take longer, but I didn't expect to see Xingyi compared to 1st through 6th grades. Do you have the actual article available to post?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was expecting to read that Tai Chi would take longer, but I didn't expect to see Xingyi compared to 1st through 6th grades. Do you have the actual article available to post?

oops, sorry about that, I forgot to add the link didn't I,

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/liujingru.html
Under Comparing Neija styles of Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi

However I think what the article is saying is the same thing I have heard before. From and internal MA stand point Xingyi should be studied first, Bagua second and then Tai Chi. One leads to the other.

I by the way got it exactly backwards when I started if this is the case.

Actually it is a good article.

 

[pete]

huh?

i understand how the fighting style within each of the 3 are of varying levels of complexity, and why it would take more time/effort to be effective... BUT, from where do you draw the conclusion that they should be studied in that sequence?

 

[pstarr]

I think that sequence is more or less generally accepted...but it isn't necessarily true at all. Some Bagua stylists insist that their art is the "university level" and all others fall short of it.

No matter.

What counts is what you learn and how well you can apply it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

huh?

i understand how the fighting style within each of the 3 are of varying levels of complexity, and why it would take more time/effort to be effective... BUT, from where do you draw the conclusion that they should be studied in that sequence?

I actually do not draw that conclusion, it is what the article said and it is something that was said by my first Sifu and hinted at by my second (although I do not think that is what he did either) and I have read that, possibly in one of Liang’s books. I tend to read about the styles I have and do practice.

I suppose if you follow that sequence you may have a better idea of the internal side of Tai Chi when you get there, but I do not think it matters if you do Xingyi then Bagua and then Tai Chi to understand Tai Chi. Many true Tai Chi masters only study Tai Chi. many true Xingyi masters only study Xingyi. And many true Bagua masters only study Bagua, although I have been told that many Bagua practitioners learn some Xingyi.

To get back on course here, I did not draw that conclusion, I said "If" that is true I got it exactly backwards. I personally do agree with the levels of complexity - kinda, but I am not certain it would be a curriculum choice. I like Tai Chi, I like Xingyi, Bagua was just ok. But that is a personal feeling, not a judgment call on any of the styles. I am rather impressed by a good bagua person; it is just not a style I prefer over Tai Chi and Xingyi.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think that sequence is more or less generally accepted...but it isn't necessarily true at all. Some Bagua stylists insist that their art is the "university level" and all others fall short of it.

No matter.

What counts is what you learn and how well you can apply it.

And I am sure I would hear the same form a long time Xingyi practitioner. I had one whack me upside the head once, complex or not, it is effective.

I am not a long time Xingyi practitioner, but I think it is fairly complex. However I do think it is easier to understand the actual applications of Xingyi than Tai Chi. Xingyi to me is more direct.

Bagua, what little I did of it seemed extremely complex, and I am certainly not a judge of it, but it seemed as complex to me as Tai Chi. However I can see that some of the actual applications behind it appear to be less subtle than some of those of Tai Chi. But like I said I am no judge of Bagua.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

....However I think what the article is saying is the same thing I have heard before. From and internal MA stand point Xingyi should be studied first, Bagua second and then Tai Chi. One leads to the other.

I by the way got it exactly backwards when I started if this is the case.

Actually it is a good article.

Then that's what this Tai Chi newbie is doing because I'm going as well. I never considered Xingyi or Bagua over Tai Chi. Although, I did consider Bagua over Xingyi.

 

[pete]

I actually do not draw that conclusion, it is what the article said

dude, maybe i am blind or illiterate or something, but you are going to have to point me to the exact wording in the article that says "From an internal MA stand point Xingyi should be studied first, Bagua second and then Tai Chi". i just don't see it, nor do i agree.

it seems uncharacteristic from what i know of Liu Jing Ru. My bagua teacher studies with him each winter in Beijing, and if i had the time, money, and freedom would be going with him later this year (unfortunately that will not happen, not yet anyway). if you are interested, a couple of his books have been translated and are for sale on Plumpub.com, as are his VCDs. i have one of the translations and a VCD of him demonstrating bagua forms and weaponry. the man is amazin'

so, again, while i agree that the training time to fight using each art is accurate, i do not see where Liu Jing Ru is saying that one should begin with Xingyi, then Baguazhang, before eventually moving up to Tai Chi...

pete

 

[Xue Sheng]

dude, maybe i am blind or illiterate or something, but you are going to have to point me to the exact wording in the article that says "From an internal MA stand point Xingyi should be studied first, Bagua second and then Tai Chi". i just don't see it, nor do i agree.

it seems uncharacteristic from what i know of Liu Jing Ru. My bagua teacher studies with him each winter in Beijing, and if i had the time, money, and freedom would be going with him later this year (unfortunately that will not happen, not yet anyway). if you are interested, a couple of his books have been translated and are for sale on Plumpub.com, as are his VCDs. i have one of the translations and a VCD of him demonstrating bagua forms and weaponry. the man is amazin'

so, again, while i agree that the training time to fight using each art is accurate, i do not see where Liu Jing Ru is saying that one should begin with Xingyi, then Baguazhang, before eventually moving up to Tai Chi...

pete

I don't agree either, and you are not blind or illiterate. It does not say first, second or third, it says compared to Elementary school, High school and University.

Under the heading

COMPARING NEIJIA STYLES OF TAIJI, BAGUA, XINGYI:

"Xingyi practitioners start from Obvious Power, that's why Xingyi can be succesfully used in fighting already after three years of practice. Taiji from the very beginning works on highest level power - Neutralizing Power. Since it is not preceded by Ming Jin and An Jin stages, it is so difficult to find proficient Taiji practitioners who have fighting skills. As the saying goes, "Taiji does not go out for ten years (e.g. only after ten years one is able to use it in fighting)". If Xingyi can be compared to elementary school and Taiji to university, then Bagua is high school. "

It is based on the order of the school I say I got it exactly backwards.

And if you get the chance to go to Beijing do it. If you go in the winter, dress warm, it snows less than the Northeast of the US, but the temperature is similar and it is windier.

I will check out the books, I may end up back in Bagua, I like it, I just like Xingyi and Tai Chi better. But like I said this is not a judgment, this is just my personal preference (actually I like Xingyi better than Tai Chi, to be entirely honest). But it could be that I did not have a true Bagua teacher at the time, his background was Wushu.

Question, I have heard from many Bagua people that they learned some Xingyi or something very close to Xingyi during their Bagua training is this standard or is it dependant on the style?

 

[pstarr]

Actually, it's fairly common for Bagua people to learn Xingyi (many learn it prior to Bagua training) - but it's by no means required.

My teacher learned Xingyi first from Zhang Zhaodong and then Bagua later. So that's the way I was taught-

 

[vincehardy3]

Upon careful examination a practitioner will notice that Bagua, Xingyi, and Taiji utilize the same postures. The difference between the systems is how the postures are utilized in a combative situation. In other words, the postures are the same, but the principles are what make each system distinct and unique. Xingyi practitioners utilize a linear and angular method when executing their techniques. The Xingyi stylist categorizes the head, shoulder, elbow, fist, hip, knee, and hand as fist techniques. Bagua practitioners utilize circular (angular) techniques that allow them to constantly attack their opponent’s vulnerable sides/spots. Bagua’s forms (kuas) are mainly a bunch of entering techniques that allows the practitioner to execute throws, chin-na, and elbow and palm strikes. The Taiji practitioner relies on the concept of yielding to draw their opponent’s energy in and then it is redirected.

A person that is able to learn all three systems is able to blend an array of concepts and techniques together, and this will increase their arsenal. This will make the practitioner a more effective and well-rounded martial “artist”. Personally, I wouldn’t categorize one art as being more in-depth than another. With proper understanding a person can see that there are concepts in one art that can be utilized in another. Most people that train in Xingyi don’t make it past training the WuXing (Five Element Fists). The WuXing is very linear, but it does show a little angular footwork in the practice of Pao and Hung fists. Once the practitioner gets involved in the study of Xingyi’s 10 or 12 Animal Shapes they will learn circular patterns that are very similar to Bagua’s stepping methods. I have studied all three systems under my instructor (Sifu Pete Starr), and I have also studied how the systems are blended. There is a lot of information and I hope that you all are able to delve into it.

This is just my two cents,


Vince

 

[Xue Sheng]

Upon careful examination a practitioner will notice that Bagua, Xingyi, and Taiji utilize the same postures. The difference between the systems is how the postures are utilized in a combative situation. In other words, the postures are the same, but the principles are what make each system distinct and unique. Xingyi practitioners utilize a linear and angular method when executing their techniques. The Xingyi stylist categorizes the head, shoulder, elbow, fist, hip, knee, and hand as fist techniques. Bagua practitioners utilize circular (angular) techniques that allow them to constantly attack their opponent’s vulnerable sides/spots. Bagua’s forms (kuas) are mainly a bunch of entering techniques that allows the practitioner to execute throws, chin-na, and elbow and palm strikes. The Taiji practitioner relies on the concept of yielding to draw their opponent’s energy in and then it is redirected.

A person that is able to learn all three systems is able to blend an array of concepts and techniques together, and this will increase their arsenal. This will make the practitioner a more effective and well-rounded martial “artist”. Personally, I wouldn’t categorize one art as being more in-depth than another. With proper understanding a person can see that there are concepts in one art that can be utilized in another. Most people that train in Xingyi don’t make it past training the WuXing (Five Element Fists). The WuXing is very linear, but it does show a little angular footwork in the practice of Pao and Hung fists. Once the practitioner gets involved in the study of Xingyi’s 10 or 12 Animal Shapes they will learn circular patterns that are very similar to Bagua’s stepping methods. I have studied all three systems under my instructor (Sifu Pete Starr), and I have also studied how the systems are blended. There is a lot of information and I hope that you all are able to delve into it.

This is just my two cents,


Vince

Thank You, I agree with you except for the postures part, but that could be my inexperience talking. Like I said, I had little Bagua background and although I have done, as you mentioned 5-element and 5-element linking, I have not finish 12 animals. But I have the multiple years of Yang style behind me.

I am hoping for a change for the better (much better) in my training soon. If what I am hoping for occurs this will give me much more depth into Xingyi, Bagua and Yang style as well, time will tell.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually, it's fairly common for Bagua people to learn Xingyi (many learn it prior to Bagua training) - but it's by no means required.

My teacher learned Xingyi first from Zhang Zhaodong and then Bagua later. So that's the way I was taught-

Thanks

I had talked with a Bagua person from Beijing and he was saying there was an element of Xingyi with in the particular style of Bagua that he did, I cannot remember the style. Also I believe Gaoguy that post on MT from time to time had also mentioned that there was a Xingyi part to Gao style.

I was just curious, thanks again.

 

[vincehardy3]

As far as the postures go you can just do a comparison between the systems. Xingyi’s Piquan is utilized in Taiji and Bagua. Here is a posture comparison between Xingyi -> Taiji -> Bagua:

Bengquan (Xingyi) -> Step Up & Punch (Taiji); Zhuanquan (Xingyi) -> Fist Under Elbow (Taiji) -> Lifting Palm (Bagua); Paoquan (Xingyi) -> Fair Lady at Shuttles (Taiji) -> Raise Shuttles (Bagua); Hungquan (Xingyi) -> Press Forward (Taiji) -> Hold Dragon Up (Bagua).

The postures and variations thereof are the same, but the utilization between the arts is different. I hope that this clarifies what I stated earlier.


Vince

 

[Xue Sheng]

As far as the postures go you can just do a comparison between the systems. Xingyi’s Piquan is utilized in Taiji and Bagua. Here is a posture comparison between Xingyi -> Taiji -> Bagua:

Bengquan (Xingyi) -> Step Up & Punch (Taiji); Zhuanquan (Xingyi) -> Fist Under Elbow (Taiji) -> Lifting Palm (Bagua); Paoquan (Xingyi) -> Fair Lady at Shuttles (Taiji) -> Raise Shuttles (Bagua); Hungquan (Xingyi) -> Press Forward (Taiji) -> Hold Dragon Up (Bagua).

The postures and variations thereof are the same, but the utilization between the arts is different. I hope that this clarifies what I stated earlier.


Vince

Most unfortunately for me you read my previous post before I got a chance to repost the following.

Please allow me to place this under that heading of “Think before I type”

And except this as my lame excuse. I am so wrapped up right now in analyzing forms that when you said postures I thought form, and you were talking about the 13 postures weren’t you? I will move to the back of the class now.

You have given me something very interesting to think about the 13 postures as they compare to Xingyi and Bagua.

And yes it does clarify what you were saying, although you were clear before, my brain just wasn't working. And I am also seeing the similarity to form as well.

Thank You

 

[vincehardy3]

Xue Sheng,

I understand exactly how you feel—I was referring to the postures. Several years ago I looked at the three “internals” as being separate until one of the seniors in the system that I study (Sifu Mark Hachey) pointed out this fact to me. It opened up new doors to me as well. Whenever I practice I see the principles and concepts from the other “internals” bleeding into the one that I am practicing at that moment (i.e., Xingyi and Taiji bleed into Bagua, and vice versa). I’ve had very good tutelage under the headship of Sifu Starr and Yiliquan’s seniors. The concepts/principles within Bagua’s stepping combined with the principles/concepts of Taiji’s push-hands can give you a whole new tool-set to work with—this is just an example. I hope that this works out for you as well.

Peace,


Vince

 

[Jade Dragon Alaska]

RE: "Xingyi practitioners start from Obvious Power, that's why Xingyi can be succesfully used in fighting already after three years of practice. Taiji from the very beginning works on highest level power - Neutralizing Power. "

This depends on your background, and how you were taught. This is not the way I learned. This appears to be more common, with some never getting internal power. After 5 years one goes beyond just Qi moves:using Fa Jing, and the proper scissor-stepping. No one has any business teaching it until then.

After at least 5 years, when a Hsing-i fighter approaches, you never see the legs; they have slipped right through you.

I learned Tai Chi first; as I learned Beishaolin and Ba Gua. Next I learned Hsing-i.

 

[JohnEdward]

I was told it took much of it's principles from the other Chinese martial arts like the external ones; and of course Kung fu defined traditionally being that what came out of Chinese medicine. When I say, taiji I mean the original Chen village style. I don't find Chen to be as complicated as the later other styles. The other styles built on to the original taking principles from other sources and advancing further via developing on their own. I think taken on whole this may lead someone to say taiji is more complex than the other styles. But, I don't think more necessarily is better. You want to learn to defend yourself, learning something so long and complex becomes more of a discipline than a means of defending yourself. I think the pendulum swings the other way into ineffectiveness when something is very complex and or difficult to learn. Say, Yang Taiji is now more geared in tradition of Chinese martial arts related to better health which is linked to early Chinese medicine was about exercise; Kung fu being about exercise as part of Chinese medicine. Bagua has been said to be created out of Chinese medicine, as an exercise for health. Far less voluminous than what Taiji has become, Bagua and Xingyi are just as effective. To say one is better than the other is splitting hair when it comes to self defense application. In this sense, it seems ridiculous to place any of these arts on a scale of complexity over each other when the core purpose and origin of Chinese martial arts is based in Chinese medicine, being about staying healthy. Personally, the more there is to learn about the art the more and longer it takes to learn, the more money you put out learning it.

 

[ilhe4e12345]

i have only learned the 5 elements of Hsing-I and i must say i really like the simple style and the power of it. Looks so good, works so well and i can see where people can say that in 3 years someone can be very good at using the style to its fullest.

I always really wanted to get into Bagua but im not sure as of this moment. i have seen it practiced and used in person and the style is so impressive. I never really understand Tai Chi, but the internal power and beauty of it has always impressed me.

I may look into Bagua after reading more about it through this thread....any suggested books on it? I have a few books on Hsing-I and one of which is the book by Dr.Yang, Jwing-Ming and i might pick up the Bagua book he has on theory and application just to check it out. His books are always so well layed out (atleast to me, i know some people dont like them that much) but any suggestions would be great.