Internal in external fighting systems

[Oily Dragon]

I know the word "internal" was first found on a tomb stone. I don't have Adam Hsu's book with me. My memory could be wrong. Was Huang Zongxi 黄宗羲 or Wang Zhengnan?

The hanzi itself is ancient, maybe even Oracle bone ancient, but yeah modern usage in the CMA sense kind of starts in the Ming/Ching transition period, like practically all empty handed forms we know today.

If you read any of the classics you'll see it pop up here and there. A lot of stuff we use in the modern era like Qi and Nei is borrowed from really old scripture and stuff describing early Chinese philosophy, which is a rabbit hole like few others.

Like, go and spend some time on what schools Huang Zongxi went to. You can spend a whole afternoon on this stuff.

 

[Nobody Important]

FWIW, I've never really believed in the whole "External" vs "Internal" labelling of fighting arts. To me, "Internal" is the mind and "External" the body. Training isn't fundamentally internal or external, it requires both mind and body to work together no matter the technique, concept or modality. Method is what you choose it to be based upon your preferences and is fluid enough to change at any given moment as influenced by both internal and external factors. There is more than one way to do most things, "Correctness" is subjective.

 

[drop bear]

Not really.

So you do a method. That results in a conclusion.

Eg. Thai's train Thai and the results are functional relaxed kicking.

Internal arts train Internal. Does that result in functional relaxed kicking?

Trying to compare them due to a common idea is one of those weird bit of mental gymnastics people do that doesn't really work.

 

[Oily Dragon]

FWIW, I've never really believed in the whole "External" vs "Internal" labelling of fighting arts. To me, "Internal" is the mind and "External" the body. Training isn't fundamentally internal or external, it requires both mind and body to work together no matter the technique, concept or modality. Method is what you choose it to be based upon your preferences and is fluid enough to change at any given moment as influenced by both internal and external factors. There is more than one way to do most things, "Correctness" is subjective.

Well it exists, but it's more or less historical distinction.

So it's kind of like Santa Claus. There's a real St Nick that is very different from the modern concept, but at the core it's a big fat dude with a beard bearing gifts.

 

[mograph]

I'm reminded of the aphorism "all models are wrong, but some are useful."

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've always seen internal vs external as a description of how power is driven. One is neither better or worse than others. External = muscle through power
Internal = power driven by movement

These are the only 2 realities when fighting in regard to muscular movement. I can either front kick through my opponent's guard or I can front kick under his punching arm. The first goes against his movement the second flows with it.

This Is the same for my movement. I can strike against my movement, example punch only using my arms and out of sync with the rest of my body. I can strike with my total body movement; example use my body movement to add power and speed to my strike.

You can still hit hard without using body movement; it just won't be your hardest nor your fastest. For a lot of people, punching with movement that is out of sync is the norm. If you aren't sure if this is you, then do the same technique slowly or record yourself and play the video slowly. Either way will show you the truth.

I think too many Martial artist make it more complicated than it really is. Others make it confusing by making it a magical thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For a lot of people, punching with movement that is out of sync is the norm. If you aren't sure if this is you, then do the same technique slowly or record yourself and play the video slowly. Either way will show you the truth.

This is why some Taiji people think they have better body uniformation because they train in slow speed. Non "internal" MA people can use slow movement to check body unification too.

The long fist system uses the following tool to achieve the same purpose. When you punch your right hand, your left hand will be pulled back no matter you may like it or not. The longerer that you train this, the better that your body unification will achieve.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Old saying in CMA, also heard my Yang Shifu say it too

Internal, external, both end up in the same place if trained correctly.

I have also heard Internal goes to external and external goes to internal, if trained properly

 

[Oily Dragon]

Old saying in CMA, also heard my Yang Shifu say it too

Internal, external, both end up in the same place if trained correctly.

I have also heard Internal goes to external and external goes to internal, if trained properly

Yeah and honestly a lot of CMA systems already combine both. Shaolin, Wudang, and other. In fact high level Shaolin training is entirely based on developing Neigong. There are internal Qigong sets throughout, many of which are based on old Daoist Daoyin.

So when I hear about how internal schools own "relaxation" I have to laugh out loud. So silly.

When you look at lineages that are mostly Nei Jia based, even then their training has plenty of "external". But those tend to be, IMHO, the people who call Shaolinquan "external".

I think they are missing the point you just made perfectly.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So when I hear about how internal schools own "relaxation"

They only own it when there isn't any incoming punches and kicks. When the strikes come in they tense up a lot. Maybe that's why their footwork looks so bad.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Old saying in CMA, also heard my Yang Shifu say it too

Internal, external, both end up in the same place if trained correctly.

I have also heard Internal goes to external and external goes to internal, if trained properly

My Sifu said we live in a world where the first force we feel is down. Sifu added to that to say it goes up to go down to go up again.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

They only own it when there isn't any incoming punches and kicks. When the strikes come in they tense up a lot. Maybe that's why their footwork looks so bad.

Most are collapsed instead of supple.

 

[vic]

Another example of "internal" in mostly external Thai boxing. The form looks a lot like bagua with low stance, weight shifts and circles.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Another example of "internal" in mostly external Thai boxing. The form looks a lot like bagua with low stance, weight shifts and circles.

There's probably a relationship between different Asian languages here. Fon jerng is Thai for Dance fight, but the word jerng also means to flood or overflow, and could be related to jeurng, a term associated with several Cantonese Chinese palm strike methods.

I often say this but the differences between Chinese and Thai arts are very slim.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Another example of "internal" in mostly external Thai boxing. The form looks a lot like bagua with low stance, weight shifts and circles.

The low stance signifies grappling techniques. It may look like it's a lot of striking but 90% of it is probably something associated with wrestling.. For example, this technique is 97% similar to one that we do in Jow Ga Kung Fu. The movement addresses someone trying to take you down at the waist. The only thing is that the movement doesn't work when in a high stance, The stance has to be low enough in relation to your opponent, so that your opponent tries to force a take down at a bad height. Having a good understanding of where your stance height needs to be in relationship to your opponent is key.

The foot lifting reminds me of hooking your opponent's foot and lifting his leg. In parts of the video it looks like his foot is sweeping behind an imaginary foot and then lifting it. This guy has some strong legs.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

These clips show why "internal" MA is superior than external MA.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I have to balance the Force now, just to wash my marrow.

The real internal:

 

[windwalker099]

Interesting

Those with a view point trying to prove it
ie : no distinction 🤔

With out understanding the basic premise of the terminology used by the culture originating it...

More so those for those who are native language speakers...One would think it would be more clear.

All CMA is internal having come from the "culture" that originated the terminology identifying distinctions in practices leading to outcomes of the practice.

Having trained in Beijing, Taiwan, among other places....
The distinctions are quite clear.

The argument if any tend to center around what one is able to do, or not....
aside from the demo's held up of those who have some skill in it..

In Beijing
We divided the practices into

Bone, tendon, skin. methods practices oriented towards strengthening those aspects to be used directly as "external" practices.

yi, qi, shen. "intention, energy, spirit" methods practices oriented towards strengthening those aspects to be used directly as "internal"

The methods used in some cases can look the same done for different reasons focused on different aspects.

Historically distinction arose out of a couple of different considerations,,,, One being to give clarity to the rationale for a group of practices, exhibiting the same type of methods and outcomes.

All CMA is internal

Some use the internal to augment the body, using the body directly
Some use the external to augment the internal, using the internal directly

very different methodology

 

[_Simon_]

Okay, I have been pondering this for... awhile now, and I'm wondering if someone can provide some clarity on it.

The oft-used quote that training in external/internal leads to the same place... I LOVE this idea... but I truly can't fathom how this manifests...

My background is in a very hard, external style, for which I spent close to a decade training in. It did not lead me anywhere close to an internal sense, but quite the opposite. Better at the external. My current style I am definitely exploring more internal components and it's only now (last few years actually) I am truly feeling this more.

Just wondering anyone's thoughts on how pursuing what's categorically seen as an "external" style can lead to the same place as an internal..

 

[_Simon_]

Interesting

Those with a view point trying to prove it
ie : no distinction 🤔

With out understanding the basic premise of the terminology used by the culture originating it...

More so those for those who are native language speakers...One would think it would be more clear.

All CMA is internal having come from the "culture" that originated the terminology identifying distinctions in practices leading to outcomes of the practice.

Having trained in Beijing, Taiwan, among other places....
The distinctions are quite clear.

The argument if any tend to center around what one is able to do, or not....
aside from the demo's held up of those who have some skill in it..

In Beijing
We divided the practices into

Bone, tendon, skin. methods practices oriented towards strengthening those aspects to be used directly as "external" practices.

yi, qi, shen. "intention, energy, spirit" methods practices oriented towards strengthening those aspects to be used directly as "internal"

The methods used in some cases can look the same done for different reasons focused on different aspects.

Historically distinction arose out of a couple of different considerations,,,, One being to give clarity to the rationale for a group of practices, exhibiting the same type of methods and outcomes.

All CMA is internal

Some use the internal to augment the body, using the body directly
Some use the external to augment the internal, using the internal directly

very different methodology

YEAH this touches on my question actually.. cheers!