IMAF Leadership

[Cruentus]

Time to go

You left just in time Rich! :rofl:

I mean what would be wrong with all organizations being able to continue their training and to have the art proliferate?

There would be nothing wrong with it, except that I really don't see pure and honest intentions with "all" of the organizations out there, and I think that is really what the problem is here. Everyone will say they have pure intentions, and that they just want to help carry on Professors art, but I don't buy it. Not from everyone. I think that there are a lot of self-serving alterior motives from certian individuals high on the totem poll. These certain individuals need to take some serious inventory, because I personally do NOT believe that those with selfish motives should use a dead man's art to further their own careers, ego's, or whatever. I think that that is the problem, and because of that, I don't think that ALL people should be successors (although I wish I could say otherwise).

 

[Dan Anderson]

We are all successors. Not all of us are leaders. The leaders will surface in the next few years and there will not be just one leader. You can take that one to the bank. Neither good nor bad, just is.

Dan Anderson

PS - There will always be just one Jeffery Leader - for better or worse. :shrug:

 

[Cruentus]

I see what you mean. I guess I am sort of interchanging the words "successor" and "leader." We all have a peice of the art, and are "successors" in that respect. But what I said above still stands as it applies to the "leaders", the orgs., and to many of the inflated ego's.

An yes there can be only one Jeffery Leader! So, if I change my name to leader, and chop off his head, will I absorb all of his powers!?

Like the highlander "There can be only one...."

 

[arnisador]

Come now Mr. Anderson, can't we go back to teasing Tim Hartman instead of me?

I like the "we are all successors" philosophy but feel unwilling to apply it to myself--modesty, be it false or appropriate. Splitting the art in many directions may well allow it to evolve and may be a good thing in the long run ("survival of the fittest") even if it hurts in the short run.

It's simple for me. Tim Hartman was always the Professor's main person, it seemed to me, during my time in (since the mid-to-late 80s). He showed a lot of leadership. I'm sticking with him because unlike many others he can really explain it--he understands it. (This is true of Mr. Anderson as well of course but I only recently met him. Plus Tim still has his hair.) So, Modern Arnis leadership is an easy question for me to settle for my own needs.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Paul Said:

You left just in time Rich! :rofl:

My Reply:

I am getting better at my Timing I see.

Now to get the timing to work all the time.

*( Goes looking for Paul *)

Rich

 

[Roland]

I found two in the London & area phone book alone today!

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Within the inner circles of Modren Arnis all the players know each other or know of each other, their skills and who they are associated with. On the other hand those outside the political circle know only what they are told by their instructors, and this is to be expected. However the other source of information for the masses are magazines such as Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu. If someone puts a full size ad for a seminar or camp in this medium, people will believe what they see because the publication has credibility and is well established. One way to discredit Jeff Delaney would be to take out a full page ad on a regular basis, stating the true facts about his ability and the way he became a GM. Sounds ridiculous right, it is, but that's would it would take, and is there anyone willing to do this, probably not.
As for Jeff Delaney attending the symposium, it won't happen because he has too much to loose. As long as the outer circle thinks he's a GM, his deception is safe. He'll continue to do seminars, camps and produce videos as the GM of Modern Arnis.
OK now it's time to dance with the devil.
Professor Remy was a genius as a martial artist and could see many moves ahead in sparing or in a confrontation, but he lived for the moment and didn't look far into the future for the IMAF or it's continuance after his passing. Had he named Tim Hartman to take charge as has been previously stated when he first became ill in Europe, things probably would be different now. He should have went with his first instinct, which was his forte, instead his vision was clouded by too many voices that almost instantly caused the split in the IMAF. If Tim Hartman had been named, sure some would have left, but not a mass exodus as what occurred. At least there would have been room for negotiation. Also, he would NEVER use the title of GM. The Professor's son or another Datu would also have been an option. A group of recently promoted middle level black belts was not the answer.
I am not judging the ability of those left in charge, just the choice of some that did not have the time or rank to support being elevated to the top of the heap.

Bloodwood, please allow me to make a suggestion with regard to people knowing the skills of others within Modern Arnis... I would suggest that your statement is not as true as you and other might want to believe.

For those people who left the IMAF, 5, 7 or 10 years before Professor's illness and subsequent death, it is very diifult for them to "know" the skill levels of those who came on later. For those who came on later, it is difficult if not impossible for them to know the skill levels of those whom they never met or trained with in Modern Arnis. Therein lies the crux of a number of problems with orientation and communications.

Next we must consider the very plain and well stated point of fact, tapi-tapi has had earlier incarnations under the names, single stick sparring, de cadena and cuentada!! How is it possible that everyone would be expected to accept and acknowledge tapi-tapi as the highest form of the art when the people supposedly best versed in that skill package are very clearly junior in terms of Modern Arnis experience to the people who went through the art with Professor in the 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's?

Add in the fact that some of the leading tapi-tapi people, have less experience with this aspect of the art than some of the people who had left the IMAF, for whatever reasons, it would seem logical there some people would be reluctant to accept the tapi-tapi people as the annointed leaders. As Mr. Hartman has stated below, respect has to earned and that has not really happened as of yet.

It is also true that Mr. Delaney has stretched the credibility concept with his usage of the title of GM of Modern Arnis. Enough people have written on that topic, so I will not bore everyone with any more comments in that area.

As for whether or not Mr. Delaney will be at the Symposium next year, i do not believe that any of us can answer that question. He has not declined my invitation, therefore it is a possibility, however faint. On the other hand, neither Dr. Schea nor any of ther MoTTs have indicated that they are even considering attending. I am not speculating in either direction but leadership is best demonstrated just as respect has to earned.

Your comments and suggestions are welcomed. I would also like to have some idea about just how many people would actually like to attend the Symposium next year. It would be a shame to have an "instructor rich-particpant poor" event.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Mao]

Again I say that there are several events sponsored by the IMAF, inc. that anyone is welcome to show up at to see, interact with, train with or talk to the IMAF, inc. Board of Directors or MOTT'S or anybody else who is there. Why wait? If you are able to empty your cup, show up.

respectfully,
Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF,inc. Board of Directors

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Not sure what you're talking about? This is your 1st reply to this thread. May be you should clarify.

 

[Mao]

How is it possible that everyone would be expected to accept and acknowledge tapi-tapi as the highest form of the art when the people supposedly best versed in that skill package are very clearly junior in terms of Modern Arnis experience to the people who went through the art with Professor in the 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's?

-sounds like an issue

Add in the fact that some of the leading tapi-tapi people, have less experience with this aspect of the art than some of the people who had left the IMAF, for whatever reasons, it would seem logical there some people would be reluctant to accept the tapi-tapi people as the annointed leaders. As Mr. Hartman has stated below, respect has to earned and that has not really happened as of yet.

-sounds like another one

-So, read previous post. Does that clear it up?

with all DUE respect.......................

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Mao

Again I say that there are several events sponsored by the IMAF, inc. that anyone is welcome to show up at to see, interact with, train with or talk to the IMAF, inc. Board of Directors or MOTT'S or anybody else who is there. Why wait? If you are able to empty your cup, show up.

respectfully,
Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF,inc. Board of Directors

To chime in, I do have to say, again, that everyone was nice and friendly at the Michigan Summer Camp. I do wish I had more time to talk to Dan, though.

As for emptying my glass, I think that is a great idea. Now to find my glass, . . . , would empty hands do?

Glad to see you reply Dan.

Rich

 

[Roland]

I have not goten any info on IMAF events at all, other than the occasional post here, which is usually to late, or even after the fact!

 

[Guro Harold]

How does it benefit anyone by comparing the Masters of Tapi-Tapi to any other top students of the Professor. I don't hear anyone striving to compare themselves to Senoir Master Rodillo Dagooc or Roland Dantes. Hadn't heard anyone mentioning that they have won as many world titles as Doug Pierre or has made as many knife innovations as Datu Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, or Bram Frank.

The Masters of Tapi-Tapi have heart and skill. The Professor saw it, encouraged and trained them, and they were asked to even help him make two video series. In musical terms, it doesn't matter how superior the conductor is if the symphonic musicians cannot carry a note.

Did they all train with the Professor for twenty straight years? No, only maybe two of them. But they did do their best to train as hard as they could and sacrifice like all the other top students before them? Therefore, in a way, the top students regardless of era have more in common than what meets the eye.

How many people stuck with Remy from the beginning? How many people bailed when they got theirs? Who knows what? "I got secrets on you, you got secrets on me!!!!"

Please, enough!!! The constant bickering is at least disheartening on one end and near negligent on the other because of its poor example of acceptance and tolerance.

I will personally be less inclined to deal with any group, event, or person whether they be MoTTs, old school, new school or renegades who do not conduct themselves with class, professionalism, respect, and class.

Harold R. Evans

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Mao

How is it possible that everyone would be expected to accept and acknowledge tapi-tapi as the highest form of the art when the people supposedly best versed in that skill package are very clearly junior in terms of Modern Arnis experience to the people who went through the art with Professor in the 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's?

-sounds like an issue

Add in the fact that some of the leading tapi-tapi people, have less experience with this aspect of the art than some of the people who had left the IMAF, for whatever reasons, it would seem logical there some people would be reluctant to accept the tapi-tapi people as the annointed leaders. As Mr. Hartman has stated below, respect has to earned and that has not really happened as of yet.

-sounds like another one

-So, read previous post. Does that clear it up?

with all DUE respect.......................

No issues, just a summary of observations based on what has been written in a number of different post over sevral different threads.

You can disagree all you want, but that does not alter the fact that neither Delaney nor the other MoTTs are accepted as the leaders of Modern Arnis by some people outside of the respective groups that these folks lead. To state that fact is not being disrespectful. It points toward some work that needs to be done to "correct" that impression. You as a member of the IMAF, Inc and a Board of Directors member, have a vested interest in this and there are others with vested interest and a different point of view. That is the way it is. That is the truth as of this moment.

I am sure that some people may very well accept your invitation to see and work with the IMAF, Inc leaders, others will not. Some people are waiting to see if Delaney and the other MoTTs are going to present at the Symposium. Time and circumstances will give us the answers.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Mao]

I was not trying to debate or argue or even disagree. I was only
restating a point.


"You can disagree all you want, but that does not alter the fact that neither Delaney nor the other MoTTs are accepted as the leaders of Modern Arnis by some people outside of the respective groups that these folks lead."

-I wasn't in disagreement with you, in fact I agree. This will always be the case due to ego and whatnot.

"It points toward some work that needs to be done to "correct" that impression."

-I agree again. There is always work to be done.

"You as a member of the IMAF, Inc and a Board of Directors member, have a vested interest in this and there are others with vested interest and a different point of view. "

-Of course, there are always different points of view.


"I am sure that some people may very well accept your invitation to see and work with the IMAF, Inc leaders, others will not. Some people are waiting to see if Delaney and the other MoTTs are going to present at the Symposium. "

-Again I say, why wait. One can find events at modernarnis.net and go see now. Just because someone does or does not go to the Symp. does not prove or disprove anything. There are ample times and places to check things out for yourself long before the symp..

Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF,inc. Board of Directors

 

[Mao]

I wish I could have spent more time with you as well. The word was that you were a very nice guy. The world could stand more good guys. Thank you.

sincerely,
Dan McConnell

 

[Cruentus]

How does it benefit anyone by comparing the Masters of Tapi-Tapi to any other top students of the Professor. I don't hear anyone striving to compare themselves to Senoir Master Rodillo Dagooc or Roland Dantes. Hadn't heard anyone mentioning that they have won as many world titles as Doug Pierre or has made as many knife innovations as Datu Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, or Bram Frank.

Good point. This brings up a question: Why do people compare themselves and others to the MOTT'S? Why the "others" against "MOTT'S" comparison?

I think I might have an answer. During the begining of the new IMAF, Inc. leadership (after the Delenay/Shea group split), the impression was that the MOTTS had believed that they had achieved the "highest" profenciency in the art through Tapi-Tapi.
This is part of what started the controversy.

From IMAF, Inc. site: The IMAF will provide for the disciplined, rigorous, and systematic training in Modern Arnis, to include (1) the Way of the FLOW (2) the Art of TAPI-TAPI.

In the purpose statement (the above was only a portion of the statement; please check the site for it's entirety) which is still on the site today, the impression is that the IMAF, Inc. believes that the highest form of Modern Arnis is through the Tapi-Tapi. This impression was more prevalent month's ago, before all of the new text and features were added. I have heard member's say this themselves, and if you look at old posts on this talk forum you'll see evidence that this is the prevailing belief by IMAF Inc supporters. The term "Tapi-Tapi," since professors death, has been used by IMAF Inc. as a blanketed statement that has been applied to "FLOW" and every other aspect of Modern Arnis.

I think that if Professors intention was for this to happend, he would have changed the name of his art to "Tapi-Tapi" before he died. Yet, the name of the art remains "Modern Arnis"....therefore, Modern Arnis "must" include other important concepts outside of the circle of one concept: Tapi-Tapi.

Since IMAF, Inc. has been propigating Tapi-Tapi, a "drill" that happend to be fairly new (and exciting to Remy) in it's method of presentation, to be the highest level of Modern Arnis. And since the IMAF Inc. are the "Masters of Tapi-Tapi," then the implication is that the MOTTS are at the highest level of proficiency in Modern Arnis. This would then also imply that since they believe that they are the highest level in Modern Arnis, then they also believe that everyone else (including their seniors in rank and seniors in length of time training) is NOT at the highest level of Profiency in Modern Arnis. Then, the further implication (or logical conclusion) here is that in order to get the "complete" form of Modern Arnis, one must go through the IMAF, Inc. for this because they are at the arts highest profiency.
And one final blow to the art: it is implied that our founder, who gave out the MOTTS titles, sanctioned all of the above implications.

The Datu's, the Senior Masters, and the other leaders claim to be what they are; leaders; and...they lead. The MOTTS don't claim to be just leaders; if that was the only claim, then there would be no problem, and no "others" vs. "MOTTS" attitude. The IMAF, Inc. appears to claim to be the only leaders with Professors complete art. This is where the problems and arguements occur.

Now, I am not turning this into a research project where I pick apart and decifer "rhetoric" of IMAF, Inc., and previous posts, etc. (that would be unfair, because that might turn this into a battle of rhetoric, a battle of which I would win). Please understand also that I don't want to battle, or slam IMAF, Inc.. However, the afor mentioned statements about the IMPLICATIONS of the IMAF, Inc. are FACT. The question remains: Are these implications intentional, and this is what the high members of the group believe, or are these unintentional implications.

This is like a forked road, and for me there is no turning back.

One road is this: The IMAF, Inc. does believe all of the implications. They believe they are the most senior in the art, that Professor Presas intended for them to be the sole leaders (thus "heirs"), and that "the highest proficiency" and complete art can only be realized through them. They believe that Professor sanctioned this to be true.

If this is the case, then I will know that what the IMAF, Inc. as a group is propigating are LIE's. Our founder did not intend for the MOTTS to be close minded and egotistical when he gave out the titles. He didn't intent for "alterior motives" to be involved. If this is the case, I will not only refuse to be included in their activities, or to include them in any of mine, but I will make it my personal goal to let the public inside as well as outside the Modern Arnis world know that the IMAF, Inc. are propigating lie's.

If this is also the case, I think that that the founders and leaders and members of the group WHO ARE SINCERE should beg for forgiveness for defiling our founders dream, and leave the group. Otherwise, for the ones remaining, pack up your sticks and hide.

Road Two: The above implications where unintentional. They were a mistake. Due to lack of communication, internal conflict, or what have you, the implications may have been the perception of the outside world, but not the perception within the group.

If this is true, then the IMAF, Inc. recognizes that they are appointed leaders, but NOT superior to all other leaders in Modern Arnis. The MOTT's title is "a" title, but not "the" superior title. No one person or group has it all, and the IMAF, Inc. would have to be there to further professors dream with the parts that they have, just like everyone else.

The IMAF, Inc. would have to state this publically, so there would be no misunderstanding's. Their actions following this would also have to coencide with this belief. I would then feel very comfortable and happy to cross-train with them, and I would be comfortable with the IMAF, Inc. group as leaders in Modern Arnis.

Either way, I am tired of the inactivity. I want a definitive statement either way.


Conclusion: I have been at this fork in the road with IMAF, Inc. for almost a full year now since Professors passing. The same with many of you, inside and outside of the group. Which road should I take? Which road will you take. What roads are open to you? Or do you even see the road at all?

And....will our questions be answered.

I am waiting still.

Respectfully,
PAUL

:apv:

 

[arnisador]

PAUL, you need an editor! If MartialTalk charged you by the word we'd be rich.

Can someone say more about this:

The term "Tapi-Tapi," since professors death, has been used by IMAF Inc. as a blanketed statement that has been applied to "FLOW" and every other aspect of Modern Arnis.

How is it being applied to the flow?

 

[Mao]

How are you my sh-- stirring friend?
I won't quote the post. Suffice it to say it is, as you said, all conjecture. It would seem that rather than waste so much time ASSuming, you could make it to any one of the events listed on modernarnis.net . I hope you don't think that the people you refer to are as arrogant as you make them sound in your post. That wasn't Rich Parsons impression. That is no ones impression that has actually taken the time to talk to one of them/us. Also, most of the issues you have raised again have been discussed before and obviously not settled, at least iin your mind, according to your post. Just take time to talk to them before you make them sound so bad. I thought you knew some of them better than that. There are so many ways to contact them that it is silly not to.

Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF ,inc. Board of Directors

 

[Mao]

Can someone say more about this:
quote: The term "Tapi-Tapi," since professors death, has been used by IMAF Inc. as a blanketed statement that has been applied to "FLOW" and every other aspect of Modern Arnis.


Tapi Tapi helps the student learn to flow from one movement or lock etc. to another. We do not use the term as a blanket statement to cover all of the art. There are still the "traditionals" among many other aspects to the art. Tapi tapi, generally speaking, takes the student from lock to lock to strike to bait and so on. It is not just a matter of hit for hit, there's more to it than that. For many, it is an experiencial portion of the art. To simply say that it is the flow or that it is any one of the traditionals is to oversimplify. Of course one seeks to flow in terms of tapi tapi, but one can apply the flow to many other aspects as well, and not to just modern arnis. Did that help?

Guro Dan McConell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors