MOTTS Thread

[Brian Johns]

To the moderators, I hope that I'm not stepping on any toes with restarting this thread. I recognize that the last thread was closed due to incivility. Hopefully, this will be more constructive.

Paul wrote:

<<<< (1) MAO, Whoopass, as well as other members of IMAF, Inc. have maintained that they do not feel that they have to justify themselves, or explain their position online. I respect this position.>>>>

There are a couple of reasons for this. First, the MOTTS (Masters of Tapi Tapi) do not want to get sucked into flame wars or anything like that. They feel that they have better things to do. However, their e-mail addresses are public and known.

Secondly, they feel that they do not have to justify themselves. As one of them said to me, "hey, we proved ourselves to the one person who mattered most and that's Professor. Why do other people feel that we need to justify ourselves ?" A very valid point of view.

More importantly, they are quite respectful of other people's achievements.

<<<< (3) However, I have always maintained my belief is that if you have an organization that claims leadership, you should have an open and public communication line to answer questions, concerns, and even slams.>>>>>

As I said above, their e-mail addresses are public and known. I have to say that the IMAF , Inc. does not claim "leadership." I don't know where you get this idea. I don't see the word "leadership in the world of modern arnis" bandied about. They recognize that Professor influenced many people across different eras and respect that. I, for one, respect the fact that other people have different ideas with regard to Modern Arnis.



<<<<This is the only way we can check and balance ourselves, and seperate what is real from fraudulent. There are no laws to regulate the martial arts, so we must do so ourselves through open communication.>>>>

Check and balance ourselves ? Are you suggesting that the WMAA check and balance the IMAF, inc. or the WMAC ? I don't quite think so.

What do laws have to do with the MOTTs situation ?




<<<<<(4) This doesn't mean that you have to answer to things on MartialTalk, per say, but I believe that something should be in place. I also believe that the history and origin of leadership should also be an open book. There should be something to really break it all down, whether it be in a press release, something on a website, or what have you.>>>

First, there was a press release immediately after Professor made his decision. It was all there on the website. It was written by Dr. Schea. Check it out for yourself. It was posted within weeks of Professor's surgery.

I'm not sure what your concern is, Paul.


<<<<(5) I don't think that there should be this stuff: "I was told something in secret, but I can't/won't tell you about it, so just trust us when I say that we are the leaders and you should agree with us and follow us." This may work for the Bush administration, but this doesn't work in martial arts. (lol) I jest a bit, here, but I do feel that open communication with everyone, including "outsiders" is important for an organization that claims leadership.>>>>


Again, I'm not sure what your concern is, Paul. I don't see how comparing the IMAF, Inc or the MOTTS to the Bush administration really contributes to a constructive conversation. In any case, I get your point. I have to respectfully disagree that the IMAF, Inc has been secretive or anything like that.

I see that you have a certain slant or bias with regard to the MOTTS and the IMAF, Inc. that need not be there. Why are you saying this only about the IMAF, Inc and not about the various other Modern Arnis groups out there ? Is it an absolute requirement that every organization has to communicate with “outsiders” to make themselves legitimate ?

The fact of the matter is that Professor chose these people. He also chose six people to be Datus. He chose other people to be senior masters. We all have our martial arts paths to follow. I follow mine and I don't worry about what the other folks do. Like Professor said, "never mind the barking dogs, just do your work."

<<<<The above is only my opinion. Others share different opinions on how communication should be handled. It's been argued over (and over again) last year, but I think that it is time to agree to disagree. The MOTT's can and will handle THEIR organization how they see fit, regardless of my or anyone elses opinions. I just hope that we can all remain friends in the art at the end of it all.>>>>

I'm glad to see that you state that the MOTTs can and wil handle their organization as they see fit. As it should be........I would say the same for other organizations as well. I would venture to say that we ought just get along with each other and not worry about other folks' organizations.

Take care,
Brian Johns

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just an admin comment here.

Brian started a new thread at my suggestion.

When commenting, please, please keep it civil.

Thank you.



:asian:

 

[Brian Johns]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Just an admin comment here.

Brian started a new thread at my suggestion.

When commenting, please, please keep it civil.

Thank you.



:asian:

Thanks for pointing out that it was your suggestion. I apologize for having omitted that in my post.

Take care,
Brian

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by WhoopAss
To the moderators, I hope that I'm not stepping on any toes with restarting this thread. I recognize that the last thread was closed due to incivility. Hopefully, this will be more constructive.

I have to say that the IMAF , Inc. does not claim "leadership." I don't know where you get this idea. I don't see the word "leadership in the world of modern arnis" bandied about. They recognize that Professor influenced many people across different eras and respect that. I, for one, respect the fact that other people have different ideas with regard to Modern Arnis.

Take care,
Brian Johns

Brian,
Regarding civility, you succeeded. Very good post stating opinions and not bombast.

Regarding the "leadership" claim, I have only one thng to put in here which may clarify things. Having had been in communication with some of the MOTTs shortly after the Professor's death, there was an implication (perhaps misread) into the communication of they were going to continue the Professor's vision for Modern Arnis. That could give the impression of leadership. Zat's all.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

Nice job with Civility.

I'll address what you said, considering that you addressed me.

I think, to sum up the issue here, is that this is just a matter of differing opinions. I feel that certain things in the past should have been handled differently then they were. I am entitled to feel this way. You, and some of your collegues may feel differently. This is fair and fine as well. I think that these differences in opinions have been hammered to the floor here and elsewhere. At some point we should agree to disagree, and just move foward.

I'll address some things point by point here, to express where agreements and disagreements may be:

There are a couple of reasons for this. First, the MOTTS (Masters of Tapi Tapi) do not want to get sucked into flame wars or anything like that. They feel that they have better things to do. However, their e-mail addresses are public and known.

I can see your point here. I can understand not wanting to waste time with "flame wars." And yes, it is true, these e-mail addresses are publically known. No disagreements here.

Secondly, they feel that they do not have to justify themselves. As one of them said to me, "hey, we proved ourselves to the one person who mattered most and that's Professor. Why do other people feel that we need to justify ourselves ?" A very valid point of view.

Here is where we can "agree to disagree," so to speak. To say that they don't have to justify themselves can be precieved as arrogent. "We need not justify ourselves" is dictator-like, emporor-like, or diety-like. "How dare you question us..." is to even take it a step further, as if no one has the "right" to question the "modern arnis gods." I think that there is an entire modern arnis community outside of the IMAF, Inc., and many of these "outsiders" had also already justified themselves "to the one person that mattered." Plus, to say that Remy was "the only person that mattered" is to also say that the IMAF, Inc. belief is NO ONE ELSE MATTERS IN MODERN ARNIS outside of the group and Professor Presas.

I would like to think that everyone who trains Modern Arnis, no matter what walk of life, matters. At least to a degree. To say that "no explaination or justification is needed" is almost like saying "If your not with us, then YOU don't deserve an explaination. You don't matter."

Now, for the record, I won't say that your group is purposefully being arrogent. I would like to at least see some of the IMAF, Inc. events soon, so I can say for sure that you guys aren't purposely being arrogent.

However, the "We don't have to justify ourselves to anyone" mentalty, in my opinion, leads to some major loop-holes and problems to people outside of your organization, as you can see. So, if the IMAF, Inc. want to maintain that stance, this is fine. I am not going to hate you and hammer you for it. I, however, do not have to agree with it.

More importantly, they are quite respectful of other people's achievements.

I just wanted to qoute you here, because I think that's great!

As I said above, their e-mail addresses are public and known. I have to say that the IMAF , Inc. does not claim "leadership." I don't know where you get this idea. I don't see the word "leadership in the world of modern arnis" bandied about. They recognize that Professor influenced many people across different eras and respect that. I, for one, respect the fact that other people have different ideas with regard to Modern Arnis.

Agreements: Yes, e-mail addresses are publically known. I am also glad to here that you and your group respect different ideas, and what not. I will say also, at least for myself and for the record, that I respect the fact that the MOTTs were actively training with professor during the 90's, where many others were not. This is something that deserves respect for sure!

Disagreements: If the MOTTS don't want to be considered leaders of the art, then this is the first I heard of it. The fact of the matter is, If the MOTT's are truely succeeding Professors Organization, and their interpretation of the art, then thay are leaders by default, like it or not.

If they didn't want to claim leadership, then they should have "stepped down" to let someone else take the reigns of the IMAF when professor passed; someone who would step up to the plate and be a leader. Or they should have taken the reigns themselves and actively claimed leadership.

You can't sit on the fence here, or hang out in limbo. This is where I feel they were in the past, and I didn't agree. The MOTT's are either leaders, or they are not. If they run an organization, they are leaders by default. They can either act like it, or not.

To be in a leadership position, but not act like a leader is a mistake, in my opinion.

So here is where we can agree to disagree, again. You/they say they are not leaders, I say they are by default considering that they head an organization, and therefore they should act like leaders and openly answer to the public. They do not answer to the public at this time, because as you said, "they don't feel the need to justify themselves to anyone." I don't agree with this, others think this is fine. No problem, lets agree to disagree, then, and move on.

Check and balance ourselves ? Are you suggesting that the WMAA check and balance the IMAF, inc. or the WMAC ? I don't quite think so.

What do laws have to do with the MOTTs situation ?

Ah....to answer your 1st question, I DO THINK SO. Example: Jeff Delaney claims to be the successor and new Grandmaster of Modern Arnis. There is no one taking him to court and sueing him for false advertising or fraud. It wouldn't even hold up in court, because martial arts politics is all nonsense outside the people it effects. This is what I mean when I say that these issues aren't regulated by law. However, THROUGH COMMUNICATION we can and do tell the truth. Through articles, internet, word of mouth, etc., we all communicate that Jeff Deleney is not telling the truth on a lot of issues. In this sense, we all have "checked" Mr. Deleney, and these "checks" are publically known for people to make their own decisions regarding them.

The other side of this is that if there was no communication between factions in Modern Arnis, Jeff Delenay would be our new leader, all just because he said so.

So yes, we all check and balance each other. I am from the WMAA. If I say something that isn't true, you, Brian, from the IMAF, Inc. can freely "check" me.

We are all one big disfunctional family. As with any family, communication is vital.

Now, you may disagree with this. First of all, yours or my agreement or disagreement regarding this matter is futile, for this checking and balancing "IS HAPPENING" whether we like it or not.

We can agree to disagree, however, on this issue if you wish.

First, there was a press release immediately after Professor made his decision. It was all there on the website. It was written by Dr. Schea. Check it out for yourself. It was posted within weeks of Professor's surgery.

I'm not sure what your concern is, Paul.

I'll have to check the archives, but I do believe you when you say that it was eventually posted on the web. This is fine. However, I would have to say that about 60% or more of Professors students did not get their info online.

Here is how it worked for most people. They got a notice in the mail about an up-in-coming event or seminar with the MOTTs on the cover, with no explaination as to what the hell happend. There was no mailing sent out before hand to explain, no nothing, not even a funeral card.

Certain people were left in charge, and frankly, I don't think they did their jobs.

I am not going to argue "why," here, because I honestly don't know. Was there foul play? Were the people who were supposed to be taking care of professors affairs just so broken up about the situation that they weren't thinking straight? I do not know.

All I know is that I don't agree with the way it was handled. Not to mention that when I got news, I did actually get on the website and e-mailed, and called and left messages, and even snail-mailed letters. I got no response.

Maybe the leadership, which is now IMAF, Inc., felt that "They didn't have to answer to me." We'll, if they were left in charge of professors affairs, then dammit, they did.

It is not just about me, by the way, because my experience mirrors many others.

That is in the past now. I don't agree with how it was handled in the past. Others may agree with how things were handled. This is fine. I am ready to agree to disagree, and move forward. It has taken a lot for me to do this, so I hope that others can do this as well.

Again, I'm not sure what your concern is, Paul. I don't see how comparing the IMAF, Inc or the MOTTS to the Bush administration really contributes to a constructive conversation. In any case, I get your point. I have to respectfully disagree that the IMAF, Inc has been secretive or anything like that.

First, relax on the bush administration comment, it was a friggin joke.

My serious opinion is that if you "don't feel you have to answer to anyone" when sensitive questions are asked, or "If you don't feel the need to communicate with the public" then I would say that is being secretive. Their may be nothing to hide, and this may not even be intentional. But regardless, the way things are handled lends to the appearence of 'secretiveness.' No disrespect here, though, and if you disagree then this is fine.

I see that you have a certain slant or bias with regard to the MOTTS and the IMAF, Inc. that need not be there. Why are you saying this only about the IMAF, Inc and not about the various other Modern Arnis groups out there ? Is it an absolute requirement that every organization has to communicate with “outsiders” to make themselves legitimate ?

I may seem slanted to you, but the IMAF, Inc. is the only group who was left in charge of the organization at professors death. They are the only group who "doesn't answer to anyone." They are the only group that has their own Modern Arnis Organization, yet "are on the fence" with leadership. They are the only group that I personally have had trouble communicating with in the past, as well.

These problems are unique to the IMAF, Inc., so yes, because of this I will only address these problems with that group. I used to be very angry with the IMAF, Inc. due to many of these problems, but I have decided to "agree to disagree" on certain issues, and I am attempting to move foward. I am no longer angry.

I don't intend to slam the IMAF, Inc., and I am glad that you guys are doing what work you are doing to keep the art alive. It is just that when issues exclusive to your group are brought up, then yes, the discussion will be regarding your group and not others.

And to answer the question; Yes, communication with outsiders is a requirement if you expect to be the leader of anything. We've discussed the leadership issue, so I believe that the MOTTs are leaders by default, if just for the simple fact that they head an org. I think that communication is a requirement to be leaders. They can just be a group of people that practice modern arnis without communication with "outsiders", but then do not expect people to come to your group for modern arnis instruction. They should go to someone who will be a leader.

This is just my opinion. You disagree. This is O.K. This should not get in the way of friendship. I think it should be handled one way, the IMAF, Inc. thinks a different way. I don't see why this should be a problem.

The fact of the matter is that Professor chose these people. He also chose six people to be Datus. He chose other people to be senior masters. We all have our martial arts paths to follow. I follow mine and I don't worry about what the other folks do. Like Professor said, "never mind the barking dogs, just do your work."

This is fair. It is one thing to "never mind barking dogs," but considering that Professor is now gone, I think we should be open to discussing legitamite issues and questions. I try not to be a barking dog. I do have questions and concerns from time to time. Professor never answered his critiques, but he did answer to people who were part of his family. As you should know by now, some of the problems within the family were even more difficult to deal with then attempting to deal with issues outside of the family.

We are all part of the same family, so we should all answer to each other. This is my opinion. Yours may differ.

I'm glad to see that you state that the MOTTs can and wil handle their organization as they see fit. As it should be........I would say the same for other organizations as well. I would venture to say that we ought just get along with each other and not worry about other folks' organizations.

I'm not worried about a thing. I may disagree with how something is handled. This doesn't mean that I don't have the right to express my opinion on these matters.

So, as you can see, Brian, there are points that we do agree on. There are also points that we disagree on. Both are O.K. We can agree to disagree and move forward regardless.

That is what I try to do, anyhow.

Respectfully,
PAUL
:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Just write a book.

:lurk:

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Renegade
Just write a book.

:lurk:

I know! I Know!! For God sakes, I have work to do over here, and look how I waste my time!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
Just write a book.

Heh. By the time they make enough paper to print it there'd be no wood left to make sticks out of! He'd put us out of the arnis business.

 

[Brian Johns]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Brian,
Regarding civility, you succeeded. Very good post stating opinions and not bombast.

Regarding the "leadership" claim, I have only one thng to put in here which may clarify things. Having had been in communication with some of the MOTTs shortly after the Professor's death, there was an implication (perhaps misread) into the communication of they were going to continue the Professor's vision for Modern Arnis. That could give the impression of leadership. Zat's all.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan,

Thanks for the compliment. With regard to the leadership issue, I can see where one might get the impression on the "leadership" issue. My own perspective is that these guys feel that they have a lot to offer in terms of what Professor taught them in the last few years of his life. Having worked with them, they are very open about sharing the Professor's art.

Take care,
Brian

:asian:

 

[Brian Johns]

Originally posted by PAUL


So, as you can see, Brian, there are points that we do agree on. There are also points that we disagree on. Both are O.K. We can agree to disagree and move forward regardless.

That is what I try to do, anyhow.

Respectfully,
PAUL
:asian: [/B]

Paul,

Having read your lengthy post, I have to say that I have to disagree with much of your post. I think that you are reading too much into what the MOTTs may have done or not have done in the past. However, as you said, "we can agree to disagree and move forward."


Take care,
Brian

 

[Dan Anderson]

...or sideways.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Brian Johns]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
...or sideways.

Yours,
Dan

Yeah, you can look at it that way !! There are so many different ways to look at the various concepts of Modern Arnis. We all have to find what we like. I just happen to like the version of Modern Arnis taught by the Masters of Tapi Tapi.....it addresses various aspects of my martial arts background.

Paul, I'll never forget that meal your mother cooked up for Professor and the rest of us at your family's house after that May 2000 seminar in Michigan. Great food !!

Dat's all folks !!

Take care,
Brian Johns

 

[Dan Anderson]

Brian,

Absolutely! That is what makes an art an art. There is what appeals to you, personally. Best reason for training in any of the Modern Arnis camps I've heard yet.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by WhoopAss

Paul, I'll never forget that meal your mother cooked up for Professor and the rest of us at your family's house after that May 2000 seminar in Michigan. Great food !!

Dat's all folks !!

Take care,
Brian Johns

That was probably my most memorable modern arnis weekend, Even though it wasn't a camp. Those were the best of times!

My mom rocks in the kitchen, too.

:cheers:

 

[Cebu West]

You see, we are family. Those last three posts had nothing to do with politics or organizations. Just good times and good friends.
Maybe there is hope for us yet.

SAL

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Cebu West
You see, we are family. Those last three posts had nothing to do with politics or organizations. Just good times and good friends.
Maybe there is hope for us yet.

SAL

No Sal,

I'm sorry to say that the last couple of posts have revealed Paul's covert dislike for me and hidden alliance with the MOTTs, spying for them while posing as a WMAA member. Where did Paul blow his cover? You see, I have been to Detroit several times in the last year yet he has NEVER invited me over to his house to sample his mom's cooking. Personally, I though Paul would be more clever than this but once again, superior intellect is able to see through such feeble ruses.

Sal, it is only your good heart and unflappable faith in the goodness of mankind that kept you from seeing this. I hope you will be able to weather the inevitable heartache this news will cause. To ease the ache, put the lime in the coconut and call me in the morning.

Yours,
Double-O Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

Oh-oh.....Dan, ya caught me!!

I have been to Detroit several times in the last year yet he has NEVER invited me over to his house to sample his mom's cooking.

I lived with my mom in 2000, but I don't anymore, so my mom doesn't have to cook for my dopy friends (so she says)!

 

[Tapps]

Dan A:

superior intellect is able to see through such feeble ruses.

Once again proving old age and treachery will overcome youth and enthusiasm. :asian:


Paul:

my mom doesn't have to cook for my dopy friends (so she says)!

Stop hanging straight lines out there or this thread could get ugly.

 

[Cebu West]

Dan
Maybe you still have a chance at dinner. With Paul being engaged now, maybe his Mom will pass on some of the family recipes to his fiancee, then you can have dinner at Paul's house instead of his mom's.

Paul
Does your fiancee really know what she is getting into?

SAL

 

[Cruentus]

Paul
Does your fiancee really know what she is getting into?

Either A. No Idea, meaning I am screwed in the long run.

or B. Yes, which would mean she is crazier then I am, so then I am screwed in the long run.

Either way, I'm screwed, it looks like. :shrug:

But wait, isn't that the whole point of marrage? So you can get screwed regularly? :rofl:

Oh s**t, here come the MT censors....

:xwing: