I hate the casual Mac user

[Bigshadow]

My paycheck exists because Microsoft exists and is THE powerhouse in the business world, so I don't care to see them go away. Although they get on my nerves as much as they do the next guy.

However, I do like Linux and I have had Linux firewalls and workstations I have built and configured. IMO, Linux still isn't quite ready for many business related tasks, but some specific server related tasks they are quite good at. Additionally, until they get a RAD software suite designed for linux, they aren't going to see a big shift to them. Not to mention the user side of things where they have to interface with file types that Microsoft has already set as the industry standard. Last time I saw the installation process for a linux workstation, it wasn't quite as simple as installing a windows application. It may have matured more since then. Once Linux can meet the common and frequent business functions and demands both on the back end as a server platform and on the front end as a user interface and provide a smooth data migration path, Linux's "Free" siren call is not going to attract much other than the hard core techies with the rebellious spirits.

Lastly, I do not like Macs because of their closed hardware system (similar to IBM's PS/2 series) and OS, of course this is why they seem so reliable to many folks. Another reason is a Mac is not really taken seriously in the greater part of the business world and I believe this is also attributed to what I said at the beginning of this paragraph.

 

[newGuy12]

Haha, yes. Its OpenBSD or some kind of GNU/Linux for me, but, its interesting how people love the Mac so much.

We have a REAL Network Admin where I work. He knows all about computering. If belts were awarded for this computer knowledge, he would be a IV Dan! He's got mad skillz!

I once asked him about the Mac. He said that he got one. After he got it, the other computers in his house were turned off, and put into a corner. That's how much he prefers the Mac.

I will say this, though, it would take more than a PowerBook to impress me at the coffee house. Actually, what is REALLY impressive to me are those people who can "rig things up", and make them do things that they were not designed to do. You know, the "void the warranty" crowd. That is impressive to me!

 

[Andrew Green]

Linux software installation has come a long way in a short time, beats windows hands down. The old Dependency hell is pretty much a non-issue on most distributions nowadays.

As far as RAD tools go, most are cross-platform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rapid_Application_Development_tools

 

[Bigshadow]

Linux software installation has come a long way in a short time, beats windows hands down. The old Dependency hell is pretty much a non-issue on most distributions nowadays.

As far as RAD tools go, most are cross-platform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rapid_Application_Development_tools

When I can get the functionality of my Microsoft Visual Studios .NET Enterprise 2005 on the linux platform I may switch. But until my company can operate completely on Linux and it doesn't interrupt the business process or cause support and maintenance issues, I am not changing. This includes both desktop and web. I have some pretty advanced sites running ASP.NET that would need to be switch. However, I would NEVER switch only one or two parts and then go through the nightmare of trying to integrate the two systems, that would be complete ********!

Currently, as a software developer/MS-SQL DB Analyst/Web Developer/network engineer, I prefer the fire-and-forget approach. Currently on our Microsoft system, I can do that and I rarely to never have any issues with things.

It is a very stable environment.

 

[fireman00]

I'm an avid anti-Microsoft kind of guy... billions of dollars in sales for an overbloated OS that folks put up with because they don't want to learn a couple of basic Linux commands ... and with the latest distros of Mandriva, Fedora, Puppy and the MANY variations of Ubuntu you don't even have to learn the commands.

As for software packages... the open market has exploded with apps in the last year. I was able to buy a 500 dollar laptop and with Fedora 8 (after running the updates) everything i need is working FOR FREE! Open Office, FireFox, Thurnderbird, Pan... and while there are "proof of concept" viruses out there for Linux there are no worries about gettign one in an email or someone hacking into your box.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I suppose that I qualify as a "casual" Mac user. Last year my grandma bought me a 120GB / 1GB Ram black MacBook. I use it for research in school, surfing the net, writing papers, burning cd/dvds, playing with pictures of my daughters, stuff like that. & it didn't cost so much, I did the shopping, she wrote the check. She said that she'd heard good things from her friends who were into computers, she's a retired career educator, & I'm following in her footsteps.
After the student and ASB discounts that I got for buying it through Auxiliary Services at school, it cost about as much as the other laptops I was looking at, when combining the three-year AppleCare warranty and tech support package that came with it in the total. Yeah, it was a few hundred more than other comparable laptops, but I had to get the AppleCare. The most expensive thing that I got aftermarket was Windows Office for Mac, since I needed it for school. Got it for half off
My girlfriend got an HP through her dad's work and paid $300 less than me. We've both had them for a year. I got antivirus for it, just in case, but have yet to have a problem, & trust me, I'm a red-blooded American male, so I'm not always spending time in the most politically correct sites. My girlfriend who, like me, explores the Internet for all it's worth, is constantly complaining about spyware and viruses. Something's ALWAYS going wrong with her laptop. The other day I was having a problem watching vids on YouTube, and she was doing a victory dance until I downloaded an Update for Safari. Problem solved & she was back to moaping! Macs might be more money, & they're not perfect, nothing is, but in my experience, all of the worst problems that "casual" users run into just don't exist with Macs. & to some people who have a little more money to put down up front, it's more than worth it to avoid future headaches.
The only thing that I could say is not so good about the MacBook for the casual user is the selection of games, if you're into gaming. I'm not really, but I like Blizzard games like War/Starcraft & Diablo II, or Command & Conquer, all of which I have for Mac, so it's okay.
My first Mac, & my first "personal" computer, has been nothing but wonderful. As long as Mac treats me as well as they have so far, I'll be a loyal customer.

 

[Omar B]

I dont get when people say somethign to the effect of "When I can do all my PC work on Linux I'll move." Fact is, Everything available to a PC user is available to a Linux user, for free and stable. I do agree with you Fireman. I've seen everything from cell phones to entire web companies running on Linux and for a ffraction of what it costs to run it Windows based. As I said, my main laptop that I use for work/travel is an older POS Toshiba I picked up for $300 2 years ago and it works like a charm.

 

[Senjojutsu]

While I may enjoy the chant “Bill Gates must die!” - the readers here may want to know some things:

Apple has had it share of “orphans” through the years:

The Apple III (almost destroyed the company in the early days)
The Lisa
The G4 Cube (the toaster that couldn’t)

Some other factoids:

The Californiacation of Apple revenue; as in 45% of its Apple Store revenue comes from its California-based stores. What will happen when the state slides off into the Pacific or is annexed by Mexico?
:uhoh:

From a PC sales perspective they are projecting to be ~3.2% market share based on units sold in 2007.
Apple held 9% computer market share in 1995, sounds like Apple is the becoming the General Motors of computers.

From the proud owner of an Apple MacBook running Windows XP.
:duh:

 

[AceHBK]

You know it just hit me....
Many people complain about how buggy Windows is and probelms with pc's but isn't that a good thing?

I mean is that how you learn more about your pc? How to find out what is wrong and how to fix it? I'll admit I knew nothing major about pc's till I started hanging out on messageboards and chatrooms and all. It took catching a few viruses, spyware, etc for me to take the time to learn how a pc works and why this and that happens. Nowadays the average person doesn't care. They just want to feel that the more money they spend the less problems they should have despite how BAD they take care of their item and lets be honest...MANY people do not properly take care of their laptop/pc's. User error is the biggest issue of them all.

I remember going from a Commodore 128 when it first came out and learning how to program...to taking time away from pc's (blame it on Sega and Nintendo) to getting to college in 1996 and finding out about the internet and really taking the time to learn pc's which has been invaluable to me now.


I sthis any different from auto manufacturers?
For example...

16yr old son, "Dad, I want a car"

Father: "Well it is about time for u to have a car to learn with...we should be able to find u a reasonable priced good american quality car"

Son: "No way dad...american cars are crap. They always break down or have some kinda problem...I want a foreign car"

Father: "That isn't always true but for arguments sake lets say that it is. At least when it breaks down you will slowly learn about it and how to fix it yourself. You will learn more about it if it has problems than if it doesn't. Once you learn more about it then you can prevent a lot of things from happening. A lot of bad things happen b/c people just don't take care of their stuff."

Son: "yea but we all have that feeling that the more money something costs the less problems we should have with it."

 

[Bigshadow]

I'm an avid anti-Microsoft kind of guy... billions of dollars in sales for an overbloated OS that folks put up with because they don't want to learn a couple of basic Linux commands ...

Not everyone has the desire to learn archaic commands or to have to deal with script files. Furthermore, most folks in the working world, just want to do their job and go home. They learned the Microsoft UI and until there is a stupid simple transition path to another platform that has ALL (I repeat ALL) the tools and functionality that they currently have on their Micro**** platform, you aren't going to be joined by the masses any time soon. Certainly the Linux platform as a user interface is catching a toe hold in the consumer market for home use, but that is about it. So it really isn't about learning a couple of basic Linux commands.

I would set up a linux workstation on one of my computers, but what would I do with it other than surf the internet and download porn? I can't fire up my Visual Studios .NET 2005 and start writing ASP.NET websites or modifying some VB.NET apps that I have written for my company or start writing and managing my Transact-SQL scripts for my database server, or even load the SQL Enterprise manager to manage the SQL server itself. Yes, Linux offers other database solutions that have matured enough for small businesses. However, the transition is less than intuitive.

In time Linux will be a viable alternative, but for now Micro**** is the king of the pile. So I am not jumping from a perfectly good sailing ship into a dingy just for the sake of being rebellious.

Just my .02 cents worth.

 

[Bigshadow]

Fact is, Everything available to a PC user is available to a Linux user, for free and stable.

That is simply not true.

I've seen everything from cell phones to entire web companies running on Linux and for a ffraction of what it costs to run it Windows based.

Not really. All you are looking at is the cost of hardware/software and licensing. In the business world Linux systems still require support. Linux support is more costly and harder to get. That is one of the places where the companies that offer the free software under the GNU license, make their money. So don't deceive yourself about lower cost of ownership. It isn't a significant savings.

Additionally the cost of retraining employees can be expensive as well, depending on what role they serve in the company.

One other thing... The Web companies you speak of were probably startups where they had the option to go for cheap. As I said in my previous posts, Linux does have good software for server based functions (ie webserver and database server). However, for an established company the transition is not cost effective.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Additionally the cost of retraining employees can be expensive as well, depending on what role they serve in the company.

You know, I've never understood that argument that seems to apply when going from one OS to another but doesn't seem to apply from going from oner version of an OS to the next version or even software tools between versions when there are major re-toolings of the interface

If people can survive going from Win3.0 to Vista, they can handle going from WInWhatever to Ubuntu or OS/X.

 

[Andrew Green]

I dont get when people say somethign to the effect of "When I can do all my PC work on Linux I'll move." Fact is, Everything available to a PC user is available to a Linux user, for free and stable. I do agree with you Fireman. I've seen everything from cell phones to entire web companies running on Linux and for a ffraction of what it costs to run it Windows based. As I said, my main laptop that I use for work/travel is an older POS Toshiba I picked up for $300 2 years ago and it works like a charm.

No, I'm a Linux user and I'll say that is not true. There is no open source equivalent of many Windows applications, and pretty much all games.

However Linux also has stuff that Windows doesn't

 

[FearlessFreep]

I use a Mac (but a Mac Pro last year and a MacBook a few months ago) for a simple reason. I grew out of computers as a hobby and wanted to get on with my life.

As an aside, I was using OS/2 and drooling over NeXT back when Win3.1 was the latest. Then I was using GNOME (and a few other Window Managers) on RedHat back when Win95 was hot stuff. From a purely UI perspective (never mind the underlying OS) I've been waiting for MS to come up with something decent for usability and flexibility... haven't seen it so far.

Anyway, software development has been my profession and my hobby for quite awhile now. However, as I've gotten more experienced, or more jaded, or more bored, I've gotten tired of computers as a hobby. Or rather, I got tired of computers having to be a hobby simply to use them for other hobbies and pursuits. I wanted more time to explore music and other things, where the computer just is a tool that works and stays out of my way. I got tired of fighting Windows to get done what I needed to (and while I enjoyed Linux much more than Windows....I wanted to spend less time dealing with my computer, not more)

So now I write software professionally on Ubuntu (using VMWare), and my own time is spent using a computer as a creative tool rather than a necessary evil

And for what it's worth, since the issue came up somewhere earlier, I've usd VisualStudio for C++ and C# development and I must say that VisualStudio in the first decade of the new millenium is almost catching up with some Smalltalk IDEs I was using in the last decade of the last.... so I'm not impressed. ( I say that tongue and cheek because I now do much of my Python development in emacs.... : (

 

[Bigshadow]

And for what it's worth, since the issue came up somewhere earlier, I've usd VisualStudio for C++ and C# development and I must say that VisualStudio in the first decade of the new millenium is almost catching up with some Smalltalk IDEs I was using in the last decade of the last.... so I'm not impressed.

I have been aware of the free IDEs for C and C++ on Linux, as I said earlier, there are no true RAD tools that rival the Visual Studios VB.NET, ASP.NET, and C#.

Sure, C and C++ is cool if you have a million years to write a small application. However, most businesses do not have that kind of time to bring a product to market. That is why RAD tools are so necessary.

Oh, BTW, I was using redhat and gnome back in the day as well, but just for tinkering. At that time it was nothing more than "Wow cool, I wish my Windows Desktop could do that!"

 

[Bigshadow]

I say that tongue and cheek because I now do much of my Python development in emacs.... : (

Python is pretty cool! I like it!

 

[FearlessFreep]

I have been aware of the free IDEs for C and C++ on Linux, as I said earlier, there are no true RAD tools that rival the Visual Studios VB.NET, ASP.NET, and C#.

VisualWorks Smalltalk

VisualAge Smalltalk (IBM) back in the mid 90s blew everything away at the time but they've let it languish since they've been focusing on Java. Now it's just sufficient, probably on par with VisualStudio plus or minus a feature here or there.

Note that VisualWorks also ran equally well on Windows and Linux

 

[FearlessFreep]

Python is pretty cool! I like it!

Oh, I *like* Python... like it a lot. But to me, emacs is not really a Python IDE (even in Python mode). However IDLE on Ubuntu is a bit flaky in some instances and I haven't found another good Python IDE for Linux (haven't tried Eclipse yet... did use Eclipse for Java in WinXP and OS/X, but not Python)

 

[Bigshadow]

VisualWorks Smalltalk

VisualAge Smalltalk (IBM) back in the mid 90s blew everything away at the time but they've let it languish since they've been focusing on Java. Now it's just sufficient, probably on par with VisualStudio plus or minus a feature here or there.

I will check it out. I remember SmallTalk. I will revisit it and see what can be done and how much skill sets transfer over.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I will check it out. I remember SmallTalk. I will revisit it and see what can be done and how much skill sets transfer over.

Not much. It's a completely different mindset than C++ (Object model is close to Python but syntax is quite a bit different and mentality is a lot different.

However, my point wasn't to convince people to use Smalltalk My point was just generally decrying the lack of progress over the last 15 years at least when it comes to IDEs. especially in the more 'mainstream' worlds of C/C++, Java, and the like