How to find a good school?

[Bonhomme]

I've been training in American Kenpo for a while now and have known for some time the school I go to is a 'mcdojo' or 'belt factory' with very low standards, large student count, huge turnover and very inconsistent instruction. Looking at options, I can't seem to find any schools that operate much different from this. Now I understand that kids programs are what pay the bills, but are there any schools left that actually focus on the art, have adults who train hard and earn their ranks? It seems like every school out there promises to make your kid some perfect human being with variations on the same set of values - commitment, integrity, self-confidence, etc, etc. When I'm training I go hard and earn my bumps and bruises, but there are really only 2 other students left at my school who train at the same level and we're not always in class together. I've also attended several seminars, multiple times with a (legit) 10th of EPAK and was recently told that he's old school and doesn't believe in teaching kids - quite the opposite of my school's approach.

So what do I look for or questions should I ask to find a school where I get my money's worth? Or is that so old school that they don't exist anymore?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Does your desired school have to be American Kenpo?

 

[HighKick]

I've been training in American Kenpo for a while now and have known for some time the school I go to is a 'mcdojo' or 'belt factory' with very low standards, large student count, huge turnover and very inconsistent instruction. Looking at options, I can't seem to find any schools that operate much different from this. Now I understand that kids programs are what pay the bills, but are there any schools left that actually focus on the art, have adults who train hard and earn their ranks? It seems like every school out there promises to make your kid some perfect human being with variations on the same set of values - commitment, integrity, self-confidence, etc, etc. When I'm training I go hard and earn my bumps and bruises, but there are really only 2 other students left at my school who train at the same level and we're not always in class together. I've also attended several seminars, multiple times with a (legit) 10th of EPAK and was recently told that he's old school and doesn't believe in teaching kids - quite the opposite of my school's approach.

So what do I look for or questions should I ask to find a school where I get my money's worth? Or is that so old school that they don't exist anymore?

It gets complicated when you combine the financial demands of a commercial school/building with a truly pure martial art. This appears to be something you understand. One thing that is often overlooked here is how much more control an instructor has when it comes to developing a curriculum for kids and most casual adult practitioners. So, it is harder to find a group of adult 'go-hards' at any one school, and an instructor willing or able to work with them.
That said, you have to consider what 'going hard' means to everyone else and how it can impact the rest of an adult life.
A 20-something single male still living at home has much less to lose than say a 30-something married male with 3-kids, a house, and a demanding job. Not everyone can afford to go to work with a juicy black eye or a cast or wrapped ribs, etc...
If you want more sparring time, there are sparring specific TKD and Karate schools out there, but they are rules bound sparring that you may or may not like.
I do not know much about Kenpo so I don't want to speak out of context, but I would tell you to audit the other schools in your area and see if any of them resonate with you.
One thing that I believe is fairly consistent is if you can find a school that still has someone teaching that is connected to the origin story of the style, it will be purer and usually 'harder'. For example, a Korean instructor that has a direct connection to one of the Kwan's.
So, do you want hard sparring or just a hard workout? The latter is on you to a large degree.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Some schools have kids classes to pay the bills, and adult classes are their actual desire. That's something you can only truly find through trial classes. Look up videos on their websites as well if they post any; I wouldn't necessarily go by online reviews since a lot of those are parents talking about the kids classes.

Ultimately, attend a lot of trial classes, go to a lot of schools, and see which one fits what you're looking for best. It might help though if you shared where you live and what arts you're willing to try - someone on here might have a recommendation for you.

 

[Bonhomme]

Does your desired school have to be American Kenpo?

I would like to stick with American Kenpo for now. I like a lot about the system and its principals, additionally I'm a green belt (working on Brown, if you're not familiar with the ranking) so I am a good way into the system. I'm the type of person who will cross train at some point (although it is forbidden at my current school) because I believe there is value in understanding other systems. What I've seen so far of the other schools around me (TKD, TSD) is that they have the same problems.

That said, you have to consider what 'going hard' means to everyone else and how it can impact the rest of an adult life.
A 20-something single male still living at home has much less to lose than say a 30-something married male with 3-kids, a house, and a demanding job. Not everyone can afford to go to work with a juicy black eye or a cast or wrapped ribs, etc...
If you want more sparring time, there are sparring specific TKD and Karate schools out there, but they are rules bound sparring that you may or may not like.

I am the 40-something, with kids, house, job, so what I mean by going hard is putting full effort into my practice - sweating and exhausting myself while focusing on mastering what I'm working on. Very few of our students break a sweat while training. Working with others on drills and techniques, it's about making contact, but not hurting each other - and I have been injured several times by people with lack of control. When I'm in an attacker role, I focus on reacting as if the strike was full force. I found that our techniques are very hard to get right if the attacker just stands there (which also happens a lot). I haven't done a lot of sparring, but what I've seen was lots of movement with little contact. I generally train at the school every day except Sunday, practice every day at home and have been an assistant instructor for some time now. Also, there is no individuality to the curriculum and ranking. Everyone is taught the same material at the same time and advances on a set schedule (regardless of proficiency).

One thing that I believe is fairly consistent is if you can find a school that still has someone teaching that is connected to the origin story of the style, it will be purer and usually 'harder'. For example, a Korean instructor that has a direct connection to one of the Kwan's.
So, do you want hard sparring or just a hard workout? The latter is on you to a large degree.

I love this concept, unfortunately in American Kenpo that is becoming more and more difficult. When the founder died, the organizations broke down and everyone did their own thing - all claiming to be the heir to the founder. I think their are more Kenpoists wearing 10th degree belts than any other system out there!

Some schools have kids classes to pay the bills, and adult classes are their actual desire. That's something you can only truly find through trial classes. Look up videos on their websites as well if they post any; I wouldn't necessarily go by online reviews since a lot of those are parents talking about the kids classes.

Ultimately, attend a lot of trial classes, go to a lot of schools, and see which one fits what you're looking for best. It might help though if you shared where you live and what arts you're willing to try - someone on here might have a recommendation for you.

That's probably the only way to get a feel for each program. I was hoping to be able to narrow things down before trying out different schools and there is always the challenge of not getting a good picture until you've been there a while. I'm in Massachusetts.


I will also add that I do get more attention from the instructors because I think I train in the way they wished we all did. The challenge in that is I am constantly sorting through the differences they are teaching me - even the most senior instructors will tell me opposing things, so I ask a lot of questions to understand the 'why' so I can decide which makes the most sense. That is a benefit I enjoy there as the mandate is very much that students should not know the why, just the how.

Thanks for the advice so far!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's probably the only way to get a feel for each program. I was hoping to be able to narrow things down before trying out different schools and there is always the challenge of not getting a good picture until you've been there a while. I'm in Massachusetts.

@hoshin1600 or @Buka massachusetts is a pretty big area, but tagging you guys just in case you've got recommendations.

The challenge in that is I am constantly sorting through the differences they are teaching me - even the most senior instructors will tell me opposing things, so I ask a lot of questions to understand the 'why' so I can decide which makes the most sense. That is a benefit I enjoy there as the mandate is very much that students should not know the why, just the how.

This is something I've seen in a lot of kenpo. Honestly, I like when they teach me different ways - it helps you dig into why you would choose one option over the other, and leave the rigidity of the techniques. Only issue is when it comes to testing and you have to remember which one is the "proper" option and which one is a variation someone taught you.

 

[Bonhomme]

This is something I've seen in a lot of kenpo. Honestly, I like when they teach me different ways - it helps you dig into why you would choose one option over the other, and leave the rigidity of the techniques. Only issue is when it comes to testing and you have to remember which one is the "proper" option and which one is a variation someone taught you.

I can appreciate the variations as I believe Ed Parker designed the system so each practitioner would have all the tools but then decide what works best for them and the situation. The frustration comes from the culture/owner who believes that there is only one correct way to do things (their way) then the instructors teach whatever. I've had 2 senior instructors correct me one after another in about a 5 minute span once. And I know that at Brown there is much more emphasis on reacting and adapting rather than rigid adherence to set techniques - it's a bit bi-polar there. During one of my previous tests I reacted to the attack going awry and made up my own technique in the moment. I passed and there was no mention of my not executing things exactly as prescribed. Lol

 

[Gyakuto]

Slightly tongue in cheek, these 93 ways to recognise a McDojo can be used to ask the right questions.

Warning: 93 Signs Your Dojo is a McDojo

Imagine the fear: You have been training in your dojo for many years now, but a weird feeling is slowly creeping up on you, giving you that uncomfortable sensation in the pit of your stomach. You don’t really know what it is, but something is definitely wrong. As a matter of fact, going to the […]

www.karatebyjesse.com

Aren’t there dojo’s run by enthusiasts in the USA? Are they all money-making enterprises? This seems to be the crux of the problem that leads to McDojo. Perhaps look for a small club in a small venue (so you know they’re not necessarily chasing the rental fees). These are likely to offer better teaching, more personal instruction and maybe a bit of social activities.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Slightly tongue in cheek, these 93 ways to recognise a McDojo can be used to ask the right questions.

Warning: 93 Signs Your Dojo is a McDojo

Imagine the fear: You have been training in your dojo for many years now, but a weird feeling is slowly creeping up on you, giving you that uncomfortable sensation in the pit of your stomach. You don’t really know what it is, but something is definitely wrong. As a matter of fact, going to the […]

www.karatebyjesse.com

Aren’t there dojo’s run by enthusiasts in the USA? Are they all money-making enterprises? This seems to be the crux of the problem that leads to McDojo. Perhaps look for a small club in a small venue (so you know they’re not necessarily chasing the rental fees). These are likely to offer better teaching, more personal instruction and maybe a bit of social activities.

Plenty are run by what you'd call enthusiasts. They're a good bit tougher to find though - if you're not making money, you're also not advertising, might not have a website (or a good website), and aren't spending money to learn how to improve your SEO.

 

[Gyakuto]

Plenty are run by what you'd call enthusiasts. They're a good bit tougher to find though - if you're not making money, you're also not advertising, might not have a website (or a good website), and aren't spending money to learn how to improve your SEO.

SEO?

You don’t need to place an advert in The (New York) Times, you don’t need a complex flashy website. These things force you to have to make money. What’s wrong with free, self-made website? What’s wrong with a post card scrawled with ‘Learn Korrody. I’ve never been caught touching minors’ in green crayon, posted in the local newsagents? Word of mouth?

If I was the OP, I’d be looking on supermarket notice boards, asking friends to ask their friends checking membership of ‘proper’ governing bodies etc. Big business in the martial arts is more likely to lead to impersonal ropey, teaching.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

SEO?

You don’t need to place an advert in The (New York) Times, you don’t need a complex flashy website. These things force you to have to make money. What’s wrong with free, self-made website? What’s wrong with a post card scrawled with ‘Learn Korrody. I’ve never been caught touching minors’ in green crayon, posted in the local newsagents? Word of mouth?

If I was the OP, I’d be looking on supermarket notice boards, asking friends to ask their friends checking membership of ‘proper’ governing bodies etc. Big business in the martial arts is more likely to lead to impersonal ropey, teaching.

Search Engine optimization.

And you don't need those things, but if you're starting from nowhere/don't have anyone to help you find those, 90% of what you'll find is the people who put money into marketing. Those will show up when you look it up online or look for fliers, and they'll have more people so also have more word of mouth.

Makes it a lot tougher to find those guys teaching just for fun in a park somewhere.

 

[Gyakuto]

One of the best Karate clubs I attended was held from someone’s garage that could hold about 8 people at anyone time. The teacher was a bus driver by day, a JKA instructor, loved what he was doing and his fees were just enough to cover his overheads. Word got around about his excellent teaching and he decided to put on a couple of extra classes to accommodate the new students who wanted to join and had a waiting list for all the others. There was no thought of monetising just nurturing new students.

What I’m saying is that ‘biggish and sort of flashy’ is not necessarily a good sign. McDojo’s are a direct consequence of capitalism in the martial arts. Like politics and religion, we should attempt to keep them apart.

So Bonhomme, you clearly have a great insight so try the small clubs run by enthusiasts. What have you got to lose?

 

[Buka]

I would like to stick with American Kenpo for now. I like a lot about the system and its principals, additionally I'm a green belt (working on Brown, if you're not familiar with the ranking) so I am a good way into the system. I'm the type of person who will cross train at some point (although it is forbidden at my current school) because I believe there is value in understanding other systems. What I've seen so far of the other schools around me (TKD, TSD) is that they have the same problems.



I am the 40-something, with kids, house, job, so what I mean by going hard is putting full effort into my practice - sweating and exhausting myself while focusing on mastering what I'm working on. Very few of our students break a sweat while training. Working with others on drills and techniques, it's about making contact, but not hurting each other - and I have been injured several times by people with lack of control. When I'm in an attacker role, I focus on reacting as if the strike was full force. I found that our techniques are very hard to get right if the attacker just stands there (which also happens a lot). I haven't done a lot of sparring, but what I've seen was lots of movement with little contact. I generally train at the school every day except Sunday, practice every day at home and have been an assistant instructor for some time now. Also, there is no individuality to the curriculum and ranking. Everyone is taught the same material at the same time and advances on a set schedule (regardless of proficiency).



I love this concept, unfortunately in American Kenpo that is becoming more and more difficult. When the founder died, the organizations broke down and everyone did their own thing - all claiming to be the heir to the founder. I think their are more Kenpoists wearing 10th degree belts than any other system out there!



That's probably the only way to get a feel for each program. I was hoping to be able to narrow things down before trying out different schools and there is always the challenge of not getting a good picture until you've been there a while. I'm in Massachusetts.


I will also add that I do get more attention from the instructors because I think I train in the way they wished we all did. The challenge in that is I am constantly sorting through the differences they are teaching me - even the most senior instructors will tell me opposing things, so I ask a lot of questions to understand the 'why' so I can decide which makes the most sense. That is a benefit I enjoy there as the mandate is very much that students should not know the why, just the how.

Thanks for the advice so far!

Bonhomie

I would like to stick with American Kenpo for now. I like a lot about the system and its principals, additionally I'm a green belt (working on Brown, if you're not familiar with the ranking) so I am a good way into the system. I'm the type of person who will cross train at some point (although it is forbidden at my current school) because I believe there is value in understanding other systems. What I've seen so far of the other schools around me (TKD, TSD) is that they have the same problems.



I am the 40-something, with kids, house, job, so what I mean by going hard is putting full effort into my practice - sweating and exhausting myself while focusing on mastering what I'm working on. Very few of our students break a sweat while training. Working with others on drills and techniques, it's about making contact, but not hurting each other - and I have been injured several times by people with lack of control. When I'm in an attacker role, I focus on reacting as if the strike was full force. I found that our techniques are very hard to get right if the attacker just stands there (which also happens a lot). I haven't done a lot of sparring, but what I've seen was lots of movement with little contact. I generally train at the school every day except Sunday, practice every day at home and have been an assistant instructor for some time now. Also, there is no individuality to the curriculum and ranking. Everyone is taught the same material at the same time and advances on a set schedule (regardless of proficiency).



I love this concept, unfortunately in American Kenpo that is becoming more and more difficult. When the founder died, the organizations broke down and everyone did their own thing - all claiming to be the heir to the founder. I think their are more Kenpoists wearing 10th degree belts than any other system out there!



That's probably the only way to get a feel for each program. I was hoping to be able to narrow things down before trying out different schools and there is always the challenge of not getting a good picture until you've been there a while. I'm in Massachusetts.


I will also add that I do get more attention from the instructors because I think I train in the way they wished we all did. The challenge in that is I am constantly sorting through the differences they are teaching me - even the most senior instructors will tell me opposing things, so I ask a lot of questions to understand the 'why' so I can decide which makes the most sense. That is a benefit I enjoy there as the mandate is very much that students should not know the why, just the how.

Thanks for the advice so far!

Bonhomme, where in Massachusetts are you?

 

[HighKick]

I would like to stick with American Kenpo for now. I like a lot about the system and its principals, additionally I'm a green belt (working on Brown, if you're not familiar with the ranking) so I am a good way into the system. I'm the type of person who will cross train at some point (although it is forbidden at my current school) because I believe there is value in understanding other systems. What I've seen so far of the other schools around me (TKD, TSD) is that they have the same problems.



I am the 40-something, with kids, house, job, so what I mean by going hard is putting full effort into my practice - sweating and exhausting myself while focusing on mastering what I'm working on. Very few of our students break a sweat while training. Working with others on drills and techniques, it's about making contact, but not hurting each other - and I have been injured several times by people with lack of control. When I'm in an attacker role, I focus on reacting as if the strike was full force. I found that our techniques are very hard to get right if the attacker just stands there (which also happens a lot). I haven't done a lot of sparring, but what I've seen was lots of movement with little contact. I generally train at the school every day except Sunday, practice every day at home and have been an assistant instructor for some time now. Also, there is no individuality to the curriculum and ranking. Everyone is taught the same material at the same time and advances on a set schedule (regardless of proficiency).



I love this concept, unfortunately in American Kenpo that is becoming more and more difficult. When the founder died, the organizations broke down and everyone did their own thing - all claiming to be the heir to the founder. I think their are more Kenpoists wearing 10th degree belts than any other system out there!



That's probably the only way to get a feel for each program. I was hoping to be able to narrow things down before trying out different schools and there is always the challenge of not getting a good picture until you've been there a while. I'm in Massachusetts.


I will also add that I do get more attention from the instructors because I think I train in the way they wished we all did. The challenge in that is I am constantly sorting through the differences they are teaching me - even the most senior instructors will tell me opposing things, so I ask a lot of questions to understand the 'why' so I can decide which makes the most sense. That is a benefit I enjoy there as the mandate is very much that students should not know the why, just the how.

Thanks for the advice so far!

Based on your description of class (even though I having never seen a class), I would suggest internalizing your training and especially expectation of others.
What you are feeling is one of the most common reasons people stop training. Frustration over one thing or another. But you have to remember you have a good amount of control over your situation/frustration.
One Big thing to consider is that you can be a source of motivation for other people if done correctly. And there is no magic to it. Just continue to train hard without expecting or judging others. When opportunities arise to show others where going harder improves their training (and they surely will) take advantage to show and encourage.
It sounds like there are ample chances to reinforce the partner role and it's importance in training.
If all of this is out the door because it simply does not exist at your current school, that is something to heavily think about.

 

[Gyakuto]

Based on your description of class (even though I having never seen a class), I would suggest internalizing your training and especially expectation of others.
What you are feeling is one of the most common reasons people stop training. Frustration over one thing or another. But you have to remember you have a good amount of control over your situation/frustration.
One Big thing to consider is that you can be a source of motivation for other people if done correctly. And there is no magic to it. Just continue to train hard without expecting or judging others. When opportunities arise to show others where going harder improves their training (and they surely will) take advantage to show and encourage.
It sounds like there are ample chances to reinforce the partner role and it's importance in training.
If all of this is out the door because it simply does not exist at your current school, that is something to heavily think about.

This is a very positive and commendable attitude but it’s tantamount to suggesting a person remain in a wacko-doodle-give-us-yer-money cult and try to find some sort of spirituality in the teachings and make some form of progress if only to show the other cult members that there is merit in their practises. A McDojo is about taking people’s money in exchange for poor teaching of a deficient version of a noble art. They’re nothing more than scams. The OP is better off out of it as fast as possible and hopefully into a proper dojo, quickly.

 

[HighKick]

This is a very positive and commendable attitude but it’s tantamount to suggesting a person remain in a wacko-doodle-give-us-yer-money cult and try to find some sort of spirituality in the teachings and make some form of progress if only to show the other cult members that there is merit in their practises. A McDojo is about taking people’s money in exchange for poor teaching of a deficient version of a noble art. They’re nothing more than scams. The OP is better off out of it as fast as possible and hopefully into a proper dojo, quickly.

"If all of this is out the door because it simply does not exist at your current school, that is something to heavily think about."

This was the last thing I said in my post. Of course the OP needs to rabbit of it is in fact a McDojo.

Even if it is not, I believe what I post is always the best way to train.

 

[Hot Lunch]

What I’m saying is that ‘biggish and sort of flashy’ is not necessarily a good sign. McDojo’s are a direct consequence of capitalism in the martial arts. Like politics and religion, we should attempt to keep them apart.

This is kind of like for-profit universities; such as DeVry, Phoenix, and Strayer.

If you look at the website of any public or non-profit private university, you'll see the news of things happening on campus, the results of their most recent basketball and football games; things like that.

Go to the website of a for-profit university, and it's one big advertisement and nothing else.

From what I've seen, martial arts schools seem work similar. A legit school is going to have the history of their style on the website, lineage information, recent tournament results, etc. There'll be some advertisement, but that's not the sole function of the site. McDojos? One big advertisement and nothing else. Note: I'm not saying this is always the case. But, at minimum, I'd consider it a red flag.

 

[drop bear]

Find a school with a competition team that most closely resembles the system you want to do. Then you train with guys who are a bit serious about their development.

Being invested due to grade advanced and then in the next sentence saying they are a belt factory.

I mean come on dude. Take a hard look at your goals and work on them. Even if that is uncomfortable.

 

[Bonhomme]

Based on your description of class (even though I having never seen a class), I would suggest internalizing your training and especially expectation of others.
What you are feeling is one of the most common reasons people stop training. Frustration over one thing or another. But you have to remember you have a good amount of control over your situation/frustration.
One Big thing to consider is that you can be a source of motivation for other people if done correctly. And there is no magic to it. Just continue to train hard without expecting or judging others. When opportunities arise to show others where going harder improves their training (and they surely will) take advantage to show and encourage.
It sounds like there are ample chances to reinforce the partner role and it's importance in training.
If all of this is out the door because it simply does not exist at your current school, that is something to heavily think about.

Thanks for this advice. My nature is to internalize my journey and reach for my personal expectations. I know I am proficient in my material thus far and will continue to be a very good martial artist. Starting later in life, I bring with me a ton of leadership experience and am driven to inspire others. Despite my frustrations with the school (there are others beyond what I've shared), I never let that impact being a leader on the mat. Ultimately my impact will be limited by the culture at that school. I will also admit that while I am confident in my skills, I'm sure my BB certificate won't be worth the paper it is printed on. It's the nature of this school and it's reputation. I am also sure when I get there, rank won't mean as much, but I'm not there yet. And I still struggle thinking about the people wearing rank who will probably get themselves hurt thinking they know karate, but can't at all defend themselves.

 

[Bonhomme]

Being invested due to grade advanced and then in the next sentence saying they are a belt factory.

I mean come on dude. Take a hard look at your goals and work on them. Even if that is uncomfortable.

I get how that sounds. What I mean is that I'm invested in the style because I have put a lot of time (including a ton of supplemental learning outside of the school) and money to get to where I am at. So at this point I want to continue in American Kenpo and will pursue other systems later on.