How should *Grandmaster* title be handled?

[Kosho-Monk]

First Degree Black Belt = Junior Instructor

Second Degree Black Belt = Associate Instructor

Third Degree Black Belt = Head Instructor

Fourth Degree Black Belt = Senior Instructor

Fifth Degree Black Belt = Associate Professor

Sixth Degree Black Belt = Professor

Seventh Degree Black Belt = Senior Professor

Eighth Degree Black Belt = Associate Master of the Arts

Ninth Degree Black Belt = Master of the Arts

Tenth Degree Black Belt = Senior Master of the Arts

Bill,

I'm guessing that you wouldn't call someone "Associate Master of the Arts Smith", for instance. So in EPAK do they just stick to Mr. Smith and everyone simply looks at the belt to see the difference?


Thanks.

-John

 

[MisterMike]

People get way to caught up in titles.

...

If there is anyone in Kenpo who deserves the title of Grandmaster (whether or not he chooses to use it), it's Larry Tatum.

Why?

 

[Ray]

I'm guessing that you wouldn't call someone "Associate Master of the Arts Smith", for instance. So in EPAK do they just stick to Mr. Smith and everyone simply looks at the belt to see the difference?

I call everyone Mr, Miss or Mrs unless they indicate otherwise. I don't look at the belt to see the difference, I look at the difference in the way they fight and move. I know a person who is a 5th degree black belt who wears no tabs on his belt - but he fights unbelievably well.

 

[rmcrobertson]

With long, handled tongs. As the piece of advertising it often is. On ceremonial and formal occasions only. As blather. As the occasion demands, since I'm not going to be rude to some 80-year-old Korean teacher who can kick my ***.

Perhaps we could ruthlessly war against all pomposity and Orientalism and narcissism in the martial arts--you know, the hushed, reverent phrasing in our posts, the name-dropping at the drop of a hat, the way that we employ other people's titles to inflate our own importance, the pseudo-intellectualism, the faked wisdom and the recitation of cliches...all of it.

It's no different in academics. As I've had occasion to remark elsewhere, with maybe two exceptions, every single REALLY famous and deserving academic I've met in the last thirty years introduced themselves as something like, "Hi, I'm Ed," or, "Hi, I'm Barbara." It's the wieners who intro themselves as, "Dr," or put, "PhD," on their name tag, that you gotta watch out for.

And it has been my experience that it is exactly the same in the martial arts. I've met pompous jerks in kenpo; I've met them in aikido, tang soo do, shotokan. Know what? In my estimation, it's the polite, well-mannered, decent folks in the arts that you want to watch out for, should push come to shove.

 

[Bill Lear]

Bill,

I'm guessing that you wouldn't call someone "Associate Master of the Arts Smith", for instance. So in EPAK do they just stick to Mr. Smith and everyone simply looks at the belt to see the difference?


Thanks.

-John

Uh... Yep.

 

[Karazenpo]

With long, handled tongs. As the piece of advertising it often is. On ceremonial and formal occasions only. As blather. As the occasion demands, since I'm not going to be rude to some 80-year-old Korean teacher who can kick my ***.

Perhaps we could ruthlessly war against all pomposity and Orientalism and narcissism in the martial arts--you know, the hushed, reverent phrasing in our posts, the name-dropping at the drop of a hat, the way that we employ other people's titles to inflate our own importance, the pseudo-intellectualism, the faked wisdom and the recitation of cliches...all of it.

It's no different in academics. As I've had occasion to remark elsewhere, with maybe two exceptions, every single REALLY famous and deserving academic I've met in the last thirty years introduced themselves as something like, "Hi, I'm Ed," or, "Hi, I'm Barbara." It's the wieners who intro themselves as, "Dr," or put, "PhD," on their name tag, that you gotta watch out for.

And it has been my experience that it is exactly the same in the martial arts. I've met pompous jerks in kenpo; I've met them in aikido, tang soo do, shotokan. Know what? In my estimation, it's the polite, well-mannered, decent folks in the arts that you want to watch out for, should push come to shove.

Tell that to 'Grandmaster' Sam Kuoha, lol, he posts on this forum.

 

[kroh]

What I find most comical is that it is not the Asian practitioners of these activities who promote such titles. It is the non-asian practioners who do. I have seen threads like this on several boards and I use the same quote from Adam Hsu ( an accredited Kung Fu practitioner ) that states when he came to the United States from China he was astounded at the amount of masters that he found. He wanted to know who promoted them and why are there no masters in China?

Silly marketing tools... enforcing psuedo asian customs like bowing in weird manners and using words that most people get wrong in their translation are rampant (there is some one a few posts up that uses the word Osu... this word is mostly used by Japanese youth and is a slang term... It is like getting excited in America and yelling out "DUDE!!!!" If you really respect the people that are being called "masters," when they talk to you would your be, "sure dude?" )

A lot of the titles used by our asian counterparts are for written comments only. For example when some one is refered to in text , titles like soke (don't get started on that one...If i had a dollar for every time this term is missued in the USA) are used. Yet, when addressed in person, the titles of sensei (which is grammitcally correct in japanese) is used. It is basically the opposite in English...and I think that is where the confusion is comming in ( we wouldn't address our teachers as "teacher Smith" it is Mr. Smith. But we would call him professor or doctor if he had earned those titles.)

For the informed it is mildly annoying and baffling... I see surpeme great grand master in bold above some one's name... Time to move to the next building. And people wonder why modern RBSD or MMA is getting big... No titles.

Regards,
Walt

 

[James Kovacich]

What I find most comical is that it is not the Asian practitioners of these activities who promote such titles. It is the non-asian practioners who do. I have seen threads like this on several boards and I use the same quote from Adam Hsu ( an accredited Kung Fu practitioner ) that states when he came to the United States from China he was astounded at the amount of masters that he found. He wanted to know who promoted them and why are there no masters in China?

Silly marketing tools... enforcing psuedo asian customs like bowing in weird manners and using words that most people get wrong in their translation are rampant (there is some one a few posts up that uses the word Osu... this word is mostly used by Japanese youth and is a slang term... It is like getting excited in America and yelling out "DUDE!!!!" If you really respect the people that are being called "masters," when they talk to you would your be, "sure dude?" )

A lot of the titles used by our asian counterparts are for written comments only. For example when some one is refered to in text , titles like soke (don't get started on that one...If i had a dollar for every time this term is missued in the USA) are used. Yet, when addressed in person, the titles of sensei (which is grammitcally correct in japanese) is used. It is basically the opposite in English...and I think that is where the confusion is comming in ( we wouldn't address our teachers as "teacher Smith" it is Mr. Smith. But we would call him professor or doctor if he had earned those titles.)

For the informed it is mildly annoying and baffling... I see surpeme great grand master in bold above some one's name... Time to move to the next building. And people wonder why modern RBSD or MMA is getting big... No titles.

Regards,
Walt

I think Adam Hsu didn't take into consideration how long martial arts have existed in the USA, definately a much longer time than he. Over time many systems stopped "reporting" to Asia.

So is it proper for an American with 40-50 years in the Martial Arts to be considered a Grandmaster? And how can someone so young question these Grandmasters?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear, "Karazempo:"

Perhaps if you were a little less eager to try and pounce, you'd have noticed that, a) I'd not know that Mr. Kuoha referred to himself as, "'Grandmaster," b) he seems to be very polite--which I believe my post covered, c) as the real deal and a bit of an elder statesman, I believe that my note about, "as the occasion demands," pretty much covered the issue.

Could you perhaps explain which parts of what I wrote you disagreed with, and why? Thanks.

Personally, I'm wit' Kroh/Walt on this one. I think it's not only the common-sense approach, but the historically and culturally accurate one.

 

[kroh]

I think Adam Hsu didn't take into consideration how long martial arts have existed in the USA, definately a much longer time than he. Over time many systems stopped "reporting" to Asia.

So is it proper for an American with 40-50 years in the Martial Arts to be considered a Grandmaster? And how can someone so young question these Grandmasters?

Hey there AKJA,

Thank you for your reply sir. I just wanted to clarify my post a little. My post was not aimed at a younger person "punkin out da mastas" it was a statement (paraphrase) from a gentlemen considered in many martial arts circles as a definative authority on Chinese Martial Arts (He is most widely known for his practice of Bagua Zhang and also his Tai Chi Chuan with 40 + years of experience; the paraphrase comes from his book, Sword and Brush). When speaking to friends who live and train in Japan, they tell me that they have not encountered any "master" rankings while out there. It confuses many in the TMA community and also the RSD / MMA community how many of these people, who might well be masterfull in their skill, can go around claiming to be masters of a TMA or TMA derived system when the parent systems don't use this practice.

It just weirds me out that when I meet some one for the first time and they introduce themselves as Master So and so... I am lead to wonder... Master of what... Universe, knitting, driving? I have a few friends who are professors (college PHDs) and when introducing themselves...I get first and last name and a handshake. I don't have to genuflect. And if these American systems stoped reporting to Asia long ago...let them stop altogether...not just half it. They still bow/salute, where keikogi, practice in dojo's, and imitate bad Kung Fu flicks by calling everyone master... If you are going to lose it... Lose it all.


If some one could have tracked me down six months ago I would have said that I really don't care what people call themselves as long as I have the right to laugh at them when it is something stupid. However, I recently encounted a situation that put some people in a bad light as far as martial arts were concerned and it was perpetrated by a "master." Does this mean that all these "masters" are bad. NO...In fact there are a few that I would love to train with!

But from what I understand...they refer to themselves by Mr. So in SO... Makes it easier for everyone...

Just in case this is taken the wrong way, Akja, I really enjoy your posts ( you post on some of the same threads I do) and this is in no way meant to disrespect you, just point the discussion in a different direction.

Thank you again for you post sir and I hope to hear from you soon,
Regards,
Walt

 

[James Kovacich]

Hey there AKJA,

Thank you for your reply sir. I just wanted to clarify my post a little. My post was not aimed at a younger person "punkin out da mastas" it was a statement (paraphrase) from a gentlemen considered in many martial arts circles as a definative authority on Chinese Martial Arts (He is most widely known for his practice of Bagua Zhang and also his Tai Chi Chuan with 40 + years of experience; the paraphrase comes from his book, Sword and Brush). When speaking to friends who live and train in Japan, they tell me that they have not encountered any "master" rankings while out there. It confuses many in the TMA community and also the RSD / MMA community how many of these people, who might well be masterfull in their skill, can go around claiming to be masters of a TMA or TMA derived system when the parent systems don't use this practice.

It just weirds me out that when I meet some one for the first time and they introduce themselves as Master So and so... I am lead to wonder... Master of what... Universe, knitting, driving? I have a few friends who are professors (college PHDs) and when introducing themselves...I get first and last name and a handshake. I don't have to genuflect. And if these American systems stoped reporting to Asia long ago...let them stop altogether...not just half it. They still bow/salute, where keikogi, practice in dojo's, and imitate bad Kung Fu flicks by calling everyone master... If you are going to lose it... Lose it all.


If some one could have tracked me down six months ago I would have said that I really don't care what people call themselves as long as I have the right to laugh at them when it is something stupid. However, I recently encounted a situation that put some people in a bad light as far as martial arts were concerned and it was perpetrated by a "master." Does this mean that all these "masters" are bad. NO...In fact there are a few that I would love to train with!

But from what I understand...they refer to themselves by Mr. So in SO... Makes it easier for everyone...

Just in case this is taken the wrong way, Akja, I really enjoy your posts ( you post on some of the same threads I do) and this is in no way meant to disrespect you, just point the discussion in a different direction.

Thank you again for you post sir and I hope to hear from you soon,
Regards,
Walt

No offense taken. I like your posts too.
My Hats off to Adam. He has much more time in than I expected. When looking at his picture in the mags he looks young and with 40+ years his "opinion" is justified.

But if a boxer had a falling out with his coach, would he still call himself a boxer? Of course, so why wouldn't a martial artist carry on what he was taught and is "rightfully" his own to do whatever he chooses do to with?

So many "respected" American systems ( good examples are Kajukenbo & Kenpo) still call themselves Karate, yet America is the arts "origination." They bow, and carry on with many traditions. Westerners are differant, why not do things differantly?

I'm not saying that the titles of Grandmaster and Master as well as others are misused because they definately are. But the same "problems" exist in Japan and probably in many parts of Asia.

My Sifu will not call himself a Master, ever. His father was a longtime student of James Yimm Lee in Hayward and Oakland, Ca. After Bruce and James Lee both passed away most of the other Oakland students went on with their lives while Sigung Felix Macias Sr. continued to develop his Gung Fu system. Sifu Felix Macis Jr. is no doubt a true master to the word. He is the "sole inheritor" to his fathers Gung Fu system which he has named the Tao of Gung Fu.

Felix Jr. began his training in the '60's and really is a Grandmaster. If we were to have to report to Asia then they and their system would be nothing. Dosen't make sense. The arts have been in America long enough for us to stand on our own feet, whether or not we choose to use foreign terminology or rituals or anything else from our predecessor arts.

So I ask you, if Felix Jr. chose to use the title of Grandmaster. Would he be "trashed" too?

P.S.
Theres a .pdf (adobe) file on this page about Sifu and Sigung that published in Jeet Kune Do magazine which supports what I said about them.
http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/SIFUSTORY.html

 

[kroh]

My Sifu will not call himself a Master, ever

This is where I agree with you... You see this kind of attitude is exactly what I am talking about. He walks in the way of a person who has attempted to reach a level few can aspire to much less reach...And yet...he does not dote on titles and pomp and circumstance. Sounds like a cool guy...Some one I would like to meet.

Felix Jr. began his training in the '60's and really is a Grandmaster. If we were to have to report to Asia then they and their system would be nothing. Dosen't make sense. The arts have been in America long enough for us to stand on our own feet, whether or not we choose to use foreign terminology or rituals or anything else from our predecessor arts.

Using the rituals and terminology insists that one is still owing to the country of origin. If one partakes of Shorinji Kempo... the practice of Kongo Zen goes with it. Not eactly Occidental in thought or theory. However take something like EPAK (I am not an EPAK student, just something I have noticed about their schools). All foreign terminology removed. Uniforms turned very American (Tons of patches and stitching and embroidered belts all drawing attention to the wearer...and in some cases filipino arnis uniforms done in the same way). Mr and Mrs in leu of sensei. Much like what some of the Okinawans did to martial arts brought over from China (like Uechi-ryu karatedo) or the Japanese did with Chinese Giwamon Fist (Shorinji Kempo), EPAK ( the ones that I have encountered) have severed ties with the host country (Japan and China by way of Hawaii) and made things American.

So I ask you, if Felix Jr. chose to use the title of Grandmaster. Would he be "trashed" too?

I am not trashing the person, I am questioning their strange usage of a word beign used out of cultural context. If he were to write his name as "Felix Jr., Grand Master of Tao of Gung Fu Martial Art" he would be "culturally correct. " IN this country certain professions still cling to the Master/apprentice system. If you talk to a carpenter who is "master rated", it will say so on his card and maybe on his licences. I happen to know a person who is Master Rated Carpenter and he does not walk around calling himself Master So and So...He would be laughed right out of buisiness. As for your teacher using the title...You have stated previously that he carries himself as a true master and yet does not call himself as such...He strikes me as a person who would use it correctly.

Thank you again for the post sir... You have given me a few ideas to chew on that may have me rethink my position in certain instances. :uhyeah:

Regards,
Walt

 

[James Kovacich]

I am not trashing the person, I am questioning their strange usage of a word beign used out of cultural context..

Thank you again for the post sir... You have given me a few ideas to chew on that may have me rethink my position in certain instances. :uhyeah:

Regards,
Walt

I wasn't implying that it was you trashing anyone (the topic is along those lines), just looking for the opinion.

 

[Gin-Gin]

But hey, until we create a Kenpo Police Force (KPF), it isn't going to change. :rofl: :asian:

Yes, Sir--my thoughts exactly :lol: which is why IMHO (which only means something to me since I'm just a student) everybody should stop worrying about the titles & keep training! As one of the GoldenDragon's signature lines states, "Time will either promote you or expose you!"

:asian:

 

[John Bishop]

I think people worry way too much about titles. It really should only be important to members of the same system. There's just way too many titles, and applications to worry about whether someone deserves the title or not. In the academic world I've seen the title "Professor" used for everything from a part time jr. college teacher, to world renowned university teachers. Grandmaster titles are also used in widely diverse ways in the martial arts, to signify ranks anywhere from 6th degree to founder.

What you really need to ask yourself is; does the person your dealing with deserve your respect or not? If your a Baptist, would it be offensive to you to address a Catholic priest as "father"?
I try and show all martial artists respect until they prove to me that they do not deserve it.
When I encounter a black belt from another system at a open martial arts seminar, gathering, ext. I make it a point to ask them what their title is in their system. Most of them will say it's "sensei, but you can call me Jim". I will address them as "Sensei" in front of everyone as a sign of respect for his position, and maybe when we're alone call him "Jim".

In the vast majority of cases people who demand respect, or constanty refer to themselves by their titles, are the ones I'm suspicious of.
If you have lived the life of a good martial artist, have worked hard at it, and improved peoples lives thru your teaching, then they and others in the martial arts community will show you the respect you deserve.

 

[LexTalinis]

Personally, I think that the title of Grandmaster should be handed down from the founder of the art, to who he deems to take over the art, then handed down from Grandmaster to Grandmaster. But that is just my humble opinion.

 

[Bill Lear]

Personally, I think that the title of Grandmaster should be handed down from the founder of the art, to who he deems to take over the art, then handed down from Grandmaster to Grandmaster. But that is just my humble opinion.

This very thing presents a problem in American Kenpo. Mr. Parker never formally declared who his successor should be. Also, I think there is a discrepancy as to whether or not Mr. Parker actually ever used the title "Grandmaster".

:asian:

 

[LexTalinis]

Bill, I am well aware of the "problem" that Ed Parker left his American Kenpoka by not naming a successor. Those are, in my eyes extrainuating circumstances where and accociated body should either preside, or vote on a successor. A dragon with no head, eventually dies. I hope that is not the fate of American Kenpo, but it does cause many issues. It is a down right shame. Like I said, just an opinion.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Bill, I am well aware of the "problem" that Ed Parker left his American Kenpoka by not naming a successor. Those are, in my eyes extrainuating circumstances where and accociated body should either preside, or vote on a successor. A dragon with no head, eventually dies. I hope that is not the fate of American Kenpo, but it does cause many issues. It is a down right shame. Like I said, just an opinion.

Even more unfortuntate is the fact that EPAK is so fractured there is no governing body to perform the action you're referencing. We're just wingin' it for now till they all come around to my way of thinking LOL.

DarK LorD

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Even more unfortuntate is the fact that EPAK is so fractured there is no governing body to perform the action you're referencing. We're just wingin' it for now till they all come around to my way of thinking LOL.

DarK LorD

Dammit, you beat me to it. I was going to say that it does not matter who says what about whom, as long as I am glorified, deified, and immortalized.

Regards,

D.