How much should we spend on social programs?

[Big Don]

Following the same theme as the other two threads...
How much of the money you pay in taxes do you want to spend on social programs?
As for me, not much at all. People have friends and families, people who care about each other should help each other out as needed. There are a multitude of charities, etc.

 

[Bruno@MT]

The thing is: social programs can save money in the long run.
I cannot speak for other countries, but in Belgium, healthcare is cheap, available and good. It works by cutting out the middle men: the insurance providers. Noone makes money off of healthcare except those providing the actual care. Since everyone needs healthcare eventually, this saves money in the long run. For example, regular dental care prevents many other medical issues later on. By making it cheap, many other things can be prevented.

The friends and family argument is a bit flawed imo, because if you need a medical procedure that is not covered by your insurer, there is no way that your family and friends can come up with the necessary money.

Also, by giving recently unemployed people a minimum income for a limited time, they are kept out of poverty and have the time to find a different job. For society as a whole, this is a long term cost benefit too.

I am really not in favor of just giving money away. However, some social programs can save costs in te long term.

 

[Big Don]

One of the MAJOR reasons health care is expensive in the US is LAWYERS. Can you say MALPRACTICE? I knew you could. Without TORT REFORM any medical reform is so much wasted effort.

 

[Bruno@MT]

That is very true. Although, in some cases, suing is the only way to pay for medical costs. If that motivator falls away, people might be less inclined to sue.

 

[Big Don]

That is very true. Although, in some cases, suing is the only way to pay for medical costs. If that motivator falls away, people might be less inclined to sue.

Oh look! A vicious circle!

 

[Empty Hands]

One of the MAJOR reasons health care is expensive in the US is LAWYERS. Can you say MALPRACTICE? I knew you could. Without TORT REFORM any medical reform is so much wasted effort.

Tort reform has no effect on insurance premiums. It does, however, take more power away from the consumer and helps protect the incompetent. Unsurprisingly, the Right is all for it.

 

[Big Don]

Tort reform has no effect on insurance premiums. It does, however, take more power away from the consumer and helps protect the incompetent. Unsurprisingly, the Right is all for it.

It would if it were done right.
Two words: LOSER PAYS
That alone would cut out all the frivolous lawsuits.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Tort reform has no effect on insurance premiums. It does, however, take more power away from the consumer and helps protect the incompetent. Unsurprisingly, the Right is all for it.

The article speaks to a "reduction" in medical costs... You can't honestly think that the Insurance Industry would reduce premiums all that much once they've gotten you used to paying a certain ammount.

What the article fails to address adequately is the fact that rates do not continue to increase at the same levels they did prior to tort reform. It only provides us with the short blurb below...

A survey of empirical research does suggest tort reform has constrained the growth of malpractice premiums for providers

Sometimes it's now what something says, but what it doesn't say that's important.

 

[Empty Hands]

It would if it were done right.
Two words: LOSER PAYS
That alone would cut out all the frivolous lawsuits.

Even non-frivolous lawsuits can lose. Thus, only those with deep pockets dare sue. Your insurance company will hire a team of the best. It's not evenly remotely just to have a person of modest means responsible for all of that. All this means, again, is power taken from the hands of consumers.

 

[geezer]

Following the same theme as the other two threads...
How much of the money you pay in taxes do you want to spend on social programs?
As for me, not much at all. People have friends and families, people who care about each other should help each other out as needed. There are a multitude of charities, etc.

Reminds me of a couple of my really conservative friends. They've worked hard, become moderately well off, support their families, are good to their friends and give generously to their churches and charities. If more people were like them, we wouldn't need liberals.

 

[Frostbite]

Following the same theme as the other two threads...
How much of the money you pay in taxes do you want to spend on social programs?
As for me, not much at all. People have friends and families, people who care about each other should help each other out as needed. There are a multitude of charities, etc.

Well, just like social programs, there's always going to be that loser uncle who takes more than his fair share. For you and I, in this "great" state of California, I know a lot of our financial problems come from people who aren't paying taxes who are taking advantage of social programs they shouldn't even qualify for.

I'd have no problem helping foot the bill for someone's medical expenses if they worked hard, spent wisely and paid their taxes. How you make a merit based healthcare/social welfare system work is a mental exercise beyond the capacity of my tiny reptile brain though.

 

[JDenver]

Reminds me of a couple of my really conservative friends. They've worked hard, become moderately well off, support their families, are good to their friends and give generously to their churches and charities. If more people were like them, we wouldn't need liberals.

Because people like me are lazy, welcome living in poverty, need someone else to support my family, are awful to my friends, never give to charity and hate god.

 

[Carol]

Because people like me are lazy, welcome living in poverty, need someone else to support my family, are awful to my friends, never give to charity and hate god.

Of course we hate god. If the reasons we have irreversible medical conditions or other sorts of challenges is because god is punishing us, that's good reason to hate god.

 

[Flea]

We hate our country too. That's why we cause natural disasters that wipe out people's savings and livelihoods. It manufactures a justification for coddling those shiftless lazy victims with fripperies like food and shelter. We invented cancer for the same reason - we love the mayhem caused by wasting all those federal dollars on people who could just pull themselves up by their bootstraps if they had any gumption.

Over the top? Hell yeah. What can I say, I get really tired of the finger-pointing. It's always Lefty's fault!!! *deep cleansing breaths* Okay, moving on ...

Personally I'm always dismayed when I see social services cut. As Bruno said, they're an intelligent investment. The CHIP program is a great example, covering kids up to 18 with health care if the family doesn't qualify for any other insurance. Which is cheaper - patching up Little Johnny after he runs out into the street after an errant softball, or paying for a lifetime of disability when the injuries never get medical attention until it's way too late? Or after school programs - they have a proven record of improving kids' academic performance and keeping them out of trouble on the "mean streets." Which is cheaper - a daily sandwich and some tutoring by volunteers in a church basement, or a lifetime of missed opportunity for a kid who just barely graduates? Or worse, a prison term - kids tend to get creative when they're bored.

Hunger, homelessness, sickness, and a lack of educational attainment never serve a purpose for society unless you're into the idea of thinning the herd. Human nature is basically selfish - people don't give enough to address all these issues on their own, but that fact won't make the issues go away. "Disappearing" social services would send us back to third world conditions within a generation or two because we'd be too overwhelmed with hunger, homelessness, sickness and a lack of educational attainment to address anything else.

 

[Joab]

As much as is needed, as much as we can afford.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Even non-frivolous lawsuits can lose. Thus, only those with deep pockets dare sue. Your insurance company will hire a team of the best. It's not evenly remotely just to have a person of modest means responsible for all of that. All this means, again, is power taken from the hands of consumers.

They already have large legal departments with legal staff on the payroll. What does that tell you?

Of course we hate god. If the reasons we have irreversible medical conditions or other sorts of challenges is because god is punishing us, that's good reason to hate god.

I hate God because he won't let me win the lottery.

Honestly, I don't know how it is in other countries but in the US the sense of entitlement is so far off the chain you can't even see the stake any more.

 

[Flea]

I suspect that if we surveyed those on MT as to who has benefitted from social services, the majority of us would say yes (assuming they would admit it.) I think many of us are beneficiaries without even knowing it.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I suspect that if we surveyed those on MT as to who has benefitted from social services, the majority of us would say yes (assuming they would admit it.) I think many of us are beneficiaries without even knowing it.

I have. Some paramedics from a nearby fire station helped save my life once after a nasty accident. And I do appreciate the police keeping the streets safer than if they weren't around. I also appreciate the public library...I've use that quite a bit... and even the postal service.

 

[Tez3]

They already have large legal departments with legal staff on the payroll. What does that tell you?



I hate God because he won't let me win the lottery.

Honestly, I don't know how it is in other countries but in the US the sense of entitlement is so far off the chain you can't even see the stake any more.

You know the old joke don't you? A guy asks G-d to let him win the lottery and starts ranting at Him when he doesn't time after time so G-d says 'c'mon! meet me half way, buy a lottery ticket'.

Non Brits tend to think we get free healthcare and benefits but we don't, we pay for them with National Insurance. We pay part and our employer pays part so on the whole we do think we are entitled to a lot, we paid for it after all.

 

[cdunn]

One of the MAJOR reasons health care is expensive in the US is LAWYERS. Can you say MALPRACTICE? I knew you could. Without TORT REFORM any medical reform is so much wasted effort.

The primary cause of the high cost of the US health care system is the US health care consumer. We run to the high tech and the new without ever stopping to ask if it is efficient or appropriate care. We fill ourselves up with unneeded pills. We are ramping up our use of medical imaging, particularly MRI. All this is going on in a system where the payer never says 'no, that's too expensive' - leading to some doctors costing their patients far more than others. The patient, after all, recieves his medical care as an 'invisible' part of his salary and is likely to never understand what it costs. Because of the diverse insurance spectrum, we spent approximately $150 billion filing insurance claims.

More relevant to the initial question: The population of a given society, its health, and its ability to produce both goods and services are critical to a healthy economy. For education and health care type services, then, a countries expenditure should be in accordance to the needs of its population. A highly developed, rich nation is going to need to spend a lot on things like education. It is going to spend a lot on health care - it puts its people in a situation where they are well fed, but not well-worked, physically. There needs to be a certain safety net when we lose our jobs, or are injured in the course of them. And, yes, we do need emergency services, and, well, the Post service is a constitutional mandate in the US.

That said, free handouts... no. But I would not be opposed to what I shall call 'workfare' - government sponsored, short term, unskilled labor jobs.