I was certainly awed by Bruce Lee when I was younger primarily because of his speed in his movies. Later, when I took wing chun I found I couldn't tell any difference from the Sifu's speed and Lee's, both were rather awesome to my admittedly untrained eyes. How good was Bruce Lee? Was he the fastest, quickest martial artist of the 20th century as some say, or, as great a martial artist as he was, are there really a number of martial artists in the world who are just as good at least when it comes to speed as Lee?
How good was Bruce Lee?
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi,
The best? Depends in whose eyes we are talking about. The fastest? Even Bruce said he wasn't really that fast, he just knew how to remove the unnecessary actions, so that he appeared fast (his words, by the way).
The thing to realise here is that speed is one small aspect of overall skill and ability, and, to my mind, far from the be-all end-all. Bruce was an inspiration to an entire generation of martial artists and more, but he was one singular example of possibility. Whether or not you find him the best is going to be up to you.
The best? Depends in whose eyes we are talking about. The fastest? Even Bruce said he wasn't really that fast, he just knew how to remove the unnecessary actions, so that he appeared fast (his words, by the way).
The thing to realise here is that speed is one small aspect of overall skill and ability, and, to my mind, far from the be-all end-all. Bruce was an inspiration to an entire generation of martial artists and more, but he was one singular example of possibility. Whether or not you find him the best is going to be up to you.
Bruce Lee? "Give him half a year / a year and he could be really good". He would be no good in UFC though (to paraphrase). And to think I had taken him for some kind of genius in his understanding of both fighting mechanics and martial philosophy. Hmmpf. Well, seems it ain't so, accorrding to the everso compelling Bas Rutten.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
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Tensei85
Master Black Belt
I would have to say as mentioned before, He was a pioneer, ahead of his time definitely. But given he was truly the 1st to showcase his style & philosophy he is automatically placed on a pedestal. I would say he was awesome not putting anything aside! But nothing deserving of his "god like" title.
Having lived for 23 years in Seattle where Lee lived for awhile, I have met a couple of guys who were students of Bruce Lee and my wing chun Sifu was taught by James DeMille, who was a student of Lee's for a few months. All say he was great in his abilities as a martial artist, but my Sifu seemed to be great to me as well. One student of Lee's said he wasn't a very good teacher, in fact he used his students as punching bags. They all say he had a lot of character flaws, he was very cocky, but could back up everything he was cocky about, and something of a womanizer, but a truly great martial artist.
Still, I have seen wing chun Sifus who seemed to be as good as Lee, but than when you get to that level its difficult to say, there all something of a blur of kicks and punches.
Still, I have seen wing chun Sifus who seemed to be as good as Lee, but than when you get to that level its difficult to say, there all something of a blur of kicks and punches.
graychuan
Blue Belt
Most of Bruce's skill...beyond what he knew of WC...was because of his training ethic and conditioning. It is a known fact that Bruce had only completed SLT level and had only just learned the Chum Kui form before he decided 'traditional methods were too fixed' and decided to do his own thing. There were plenty of guys in the original Ip man group out of Hong Kong in 1951 that knew Bruce personally. My Sigung, Woo Fai Ching was one.
In truth, Yip man didnt even train Bruce as much as is popularized. Wong Shun Lung did most of Bruce's teaching although Bruce did spend time with Yip Man. The phenomena of Bruce's skills say more about WC than it does about him. Just think if he had finished the system how skilled would he be?
Like a lot of less dedicated Chunnas, Bruce didnt have the patience for 'traditional systems' and when he didnt have the time to devote to true understanding he called it useless and tried to do his own 'Jeet Kune Do'. This did not sit well with Yip Man at all. In the end even Bruce denounced his creation of JKD. Why? Because it was just incomplete Wing Chun. Good as he was, his understanding never actually went beyond what he had learned in Hong Kong. So of course he filled in the holes with whatever else he could find usefull.
I love Bruce and his movies, but I have LEARNED to love Wing Chun more.
In truth, Yip man didnt even train Bruce as much as is popularized. Wong Shun Lung did most of Bruce's teaching although Bruce did spend time with Yip Man. The phenomena of Bruce's skills say more about WC than it does about him. Just think if he had finished the system how skilled would he be?
Like a lot of less dedicated Chunnas, Bruce didnt have the patience for 'traditional systems' and when he didnt have the time to devote to true understanding he called it useless and tried to do his own 'Jeet Kune Do'. This did not sit well with Yip Man at all. In the end even Bruce denounced his creation of JKD. Why? Because it was just incomplete Wing Chun. Good as he was, his understanding never actually went beyond what he had learned in Hong Kong. So of course he filled in the holes with whatever else he could find usefull.
I love Bruce and his movies, but I have LEARNED to love Wing Chun more.
Tensei85
Master Black Belt
Hey, actually are you one of Ali Rahim Sifu's students? (sorry, off topic)
Tensei85
Master Black Belt
That's agreed, we can debate all day. (I could say I'm better than Bruce! by the way I'm not serious...)
He was a pioneer so give credit to where credit is due, he was ahead of his times. Maybe not the best, maybe the best. But that's not whats important, take whats of use and discard the rest. From Bruce Lee.
Tensei85
Master Black Belt
Graychuan, maybe you can clear this up for me.
But wasn't Woo Fai Chin Sifu taught by Leung Seung who in turn would have had interactions with Bruce, but given the time lines I don't believe Woo Fai Chin Sifu would have.
Not causing trouble just trying to get a better perspective.
Thanks,
But wasn't Woo Fai Chin Sifu taught by Leung Seung who in turn would have had interactions with Bruce, but given the time lines I don't believe Woo Fai Chin Sifu would have.
Not causing trouble just trying to get a better perspective.
Thanks,
graychuan
Blue Belt
I didn't say they were, I wrote "to my untrained eye" in other words, from what little I know (And I freely admit it is untrained)
they both looked like blurs to me. What I was asking is of those who have trained eyes, how good did Bruce look to you? To me he looked awesome, but than what do I know? Not a lot to be honest.
I think you are putting words in his mouth there. Bruce Lee, with the skills he had when he was alive, would lose. He didn't train to fight against MMA fighters, MMA wasn't around. He's never even seen a Octagon, not to mention MMA fights. How are you going to deal with G&P tactics when you've never even seen them used?
Bruce Lee might do well in MMA, but he would have to learn the sport first, and based on everything he's written, that is exactly what he would do. But it would take him some time to learn the skills needed to do MMA.
Those first handful of UFC's showed one thing, if you don't know the other guys skill set and he knows yours, you will loose. Which is basically what Bas is saying. His stuff was ahead of its time, but MMA is even further ahead (at least as it relates to MMA fighting)
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I agree completely. If MMA had come around when Bruce was alive, he would have adapted. That's what he was all about. And from what people who knew him say, he was a quick learner.
As far as the OP goes... "How good was he?" Good enough to inspire a couple of generations of students to take up the martial arts. There may be those who are better fighters, but for me (as others have said) Bruce was to MA what Ali was to boxing. The greatest.
David43515
Master Black Belt
Okay, I`ll give the guy his due. Bruce Lee was a Philosophy major in college so he was a trained analytical thinker. That helped him to present MA in a way that westerners appreciate and understand much easier. He also popularized Kung Fu and most other MA for westerners. Good for him.
But according to Dan Inosanto, there were at least 12-15 people around the west coast alone that Lee readily recognized as being better fighters than he was.
Everyone seems to think he was some kind of MA god. Get over it people. He was a boxer and a part time wing chunner that wasn`t afraid to cross train. He was in fantastic physical shape. But he was an actor trying desperately to promote his own celebrity and if possible his own style of martial arts cobbled together with very little guidance. When he first began his "traditional training is a waste and can`t stand up to my new modern BS "routine, he rented a theatre in San Fransico to do public demonstrations of his amazing speed. He said no one would be able to stand up to his punching speed and asked for voluteers from the audience to help with a friendly demo. Several of Lau Bun`s Choy Lay Fut students urged one of thier best seniors to go up and be a part of the demo. He used a simple traditional winmill series of repetative blocks and Lee couldn`t lay a glove on him.
We ALL have our hero worship and the people that inspired us to begin training......but the guy`s been dea for how many years people? Let it go.
But according to Dan Inosanto, there were at least 12-15 people around the west coast alone that Lee readily recognized as being better fighters than he was.
Everyone seems to think he was some kind of MA god. Get over it people. He was a boxer and a part time wing chunner that wasn`t afraid to cross train. He was in fantastic physical shape. But he was an actor trying desperately to promote his own celebrity and if possible his own style of martial arts cobbled together with very little guidance. When he first began his "traditional training is a waste and can`t stand up to my new modern BS "routine, he rented a theatre in San Fransico to do public demonstrations of his amazing speed. He said no one would be able to stand up to his punching speed and asked for voluteers from the audience to help with a friendly demo. Several of Lau Bun`s Choy Lay Fut students urged one of thier best seniors to go up and be a part of the demo. He used a simple traditional winmill series of repetative blocks and Lee couldn`t lay a glove on him.
We ALL have our hero worship and the people that inspired us to begin training......but the guy`s been dea for how many years people? Let it go.
Boy, this could be the subject for a whole new thread. It is well known that Bruce was never taught the highest levels of WC. But on the other hand, the core stuff, well understood, can be devastating in the hands of "a natural". Especially, a driven one. I have met such individuals. Emin Boztepe is one who comes to mind.
Another point. With a list of seniors, or "si-hings", as long as your arm, it would have been difficult for Bruce to catapult to the top levels of the Yip Man lineage, regardless of his skills. So he may have felt that he had little choice but to find his own path. Was the trade-off worth it? Did he come out ahead, or not? Maybe if he were alive today, he could tell us.
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