Bruce

Zero

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Ok, so I of course look on the late, great Bruce Lee with absolute reverence. When I was much younger I continually watched his movies, sought all interviews and footage on him and (re)read his books.

I don't mean this to be exactly like a "could the incredible hulk beat superman in an armwrestle?" but a long time ago I asked one of my trainers what he thought of Bruce as a fighter. He said that as a skilled martial artist he was second to none but that he could not honestly comment on his ability purely as a fighter and as to how he may have fared in competiton - he felt there just was not enough footage or documented evidence to Bruce's actual fight time.

I have often wondered how Bruce would fare in modern day mixed martial arts competitions - Bruce having no concern on the philosophy of mixing those workable components of many different styles and forms. He always stated he feared no man but would his speed and pure physial prowess enable him to fight and defeat the type of very large modern athlete fighters we have today. Or would he find himself being steamrolled? I am not talking about in the street opf course, as then I would almost defintely go for Bruce, but does anyone have thoughts on how he might do in mma or UFC type tournaments? Or again just "pure" competitions, is there the like of him out there these days?

Yeah, this is all hypothetical, what-if stuff but I don't see it as pure baloney.
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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I personaly don't care if he would get beat in MMA by Matt Hughes. But I do think he was extremly smart and open minded and if he were alive today he would most probably adapt and would probably handle himself pretty OK even in todays world. Thats the whole point of JKD in my opinion; to not stay rigid, adapt, be flexible, don't be confined by such irrelevant concepts as styles etc...

Dan Inosanto said that he has no doubt in his mind that if he went into proffesional boxin he would have come out among the top three in the lightweight catagory. And he knew the guy pretty well.

I know what you are asking but I would like to point out that if BL could do this could do that is so irrelavant. His genius to me is in his philosophy. And thats what can realy help you!
 

MA-Caver

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??? is it me or did my post on this thread just suddenly disappear? ??

Wait! hold the phone... duh... just now noticed where the thread is compared to the similar one over in the Karate forum... sorry... foot-in-mouth disease strikes again... ignore me okay??
 

Zyaga

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I don't believe he would have cared to even enter into the MMA fights for anyone to find out.

As everyone knows, he was all about fighting for real, not with a limited set of rules(Yes, MMA has plenty of rules).

But that's just my opinion, maybe he would. Here is a quote of his to think about though:

I don't believe in different ways of fighting now, I mean, unless human beings have 3 arms and 3 legs - then we will have a different way of fighting. But basically we all have two arms and two legs so that is why I believe there should be only one way of fighting and that is no way.
 

Yoshiyahu

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ACtually Bruce had several fights that were set up with rules. Like tournments and exhibitions. But as for MMA. Bruce has ground fighting techniques but if he was match with someone in his weight class he would probably do well in UFC and MMA. But if he fought in the beginning where weight classes didn't matter. A skilled wrestler bigger than him would probably submit him...Thats my opinion. Because JKD is not an exclusive ground fighting art. Judo guys do poorly against the ground fighters in MMA. So in my opinion I think Bruce would probably be good in his own weight class where his power and speed would effect people the most.

But against huge muscular wrestler who is skilled in JJJ or MMA I don't know...Atleast at first he would get beaten until he adapted the JKD to win.
 

Zyaga

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ACtually Bruce had several fights that were set up with rules. Like tournments and exhibitions.

I know that, but how often did that actually happen? I didn't mean to imply he never had(or ever would) fight in competitions that had rules, because it's obvious that everyone knew he had before. Yet, I still can't see him as someone who would participate frequently in a Martial Art "sport". I mention this because of his other quote:

When you're talking about fighting, as it is, with no rules, well then, baby you'd better train every part of your body!
Of course, again.. no one can say for sure what he would do either way.
 

Yoshiyahu

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Here is a chart dealing with Bruce Lee Competitions fights!!! I hope this helps...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_lee#Fights

YearOpponentLocationResultOther info
1955 William CheungHong KongExhibition
1957 Wong Shun-LeungHong KongExhibition
1958 Pu ChangHong KongKO 2Referee: Wong Shun-Leung
1958 Yang HuangHong KongKO 1Amateur Boxing Tournament
1958 Lieh LoHong KongKO 1Amateur Boxing Tournament
1958 Shen YuenHong KongKO 1Amateur Boxing Tournament-Semi Finals
1958 Gary ElmsHong KongKO 3Amateur Boxing Tournament-Finals
1960 (unknown)Seattle, WashingtonKO 1Lee scored a knockout with a backfist/Street Fight
1960 (unknown)Seattle, WashingtonKO 1Street Fight
1962 (?)UechiSeattle, WashingtonKO 1Referee: Jesse Glover
1963 (unknown)Hong KongKO
1964 Wong Jack ManOakland, CaliforniaKOThe KO came 3 minutes into the fight.
1973 (Kung fu fighter)Hong KongKOThe KO came 30 seconds into the fight.

Bruce Lee Kicks **** in Real Life
colorbar.gif


These are a few of the fights that Bruce participated in the ring and out.
1958: vs. Gary Elms in a tournament. (Won) 1958 or 1959: Against Chung on a rooftop in Hong Kong. (Won in 2nd Round) 1960 - Seattle: Bruce backfisted a guy and busted his nose after Bruce saw him harrassing a Chinese Girl. Bruce was taking a walk. This fight was witnessed by James DeMile. 1960 or 1961: vs. Uechi. (Won in 10 seconds) Summer 1963 - Hong Kong: Bruce snapped a low kick to a punk's shin after the punk and his friend harrassed him during an evening stroll.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~chenj/brucelee/bruce_faq.html
I know that, but how often did that actually happen? I didn't mean to imply he never had(or ever would) fight in competitions that had rules, because it's obvious that everyone knew he had before. Yet, I still can't see him as someone who would participate frequently in a Martial Art "sport". I mention this because of his other quote:

Of course, again.. no one can say for sure what he would do either way.
 
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KamonGuy2

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The thing about Bruce which I admire the most was that he was a progressive martial artist

If he had been alive and young in this decade he would undoubtedly be training how most MMA guys train. Certainly he was looking at grappling towards the end of his life (Enter The Dragon's first fight against Sammo Hung for example)

He had extremely high speed, an amazing fitness and incredible knowledge of martial arts

But I think what you are referring to would have been whether his kung fu alone would have held up in the octagon. I would say that on most occasions yes. But I don't think/know he would have been as high profile as most of the other fighters

Rumour had it that he had many streetfights when he was growing up in Hong Kong which would have helped immensley with his mental toughness and ability to take a hit

There is some great footage on outube of him sparring, but as the original post says - because there was no
documented competitive fights or stats, it is hard to compare him to the warriors of today

I think we should acknowledge Bruce for being one of the biggest influences in martial arts and leave it at that
Speculation is fun , but could drive you crazy
Pirates or Ninjas. Pirates or Ninjas. Pirates or Ninjas
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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ACtually Bruce had several fights that were set up with rules. Like tournments and exhibitions. But as for MMA. Bruce has ground fighting techniques but if he was match with someone in his weight class he would probably do well in UFC and MMA. But if he fought in the beginning where weight classes didn't matter. A skilled wrestler bigger than him would probably submit him...Thats my opinion. Because JKD is not an exclusive ground fighting art. Judo guys do poorly against the ground fighters in MMA. So in my opinion I think Bruce would probably be good in his own weight class where his power and speed would effect people the most.

But against huge muscular wrestler who is skilled in JJJ or MMA I don't know...Atleast at first he would get beaten until he adapted the JKD to win.

I think one should take in to context that he lived long before the whole MMA hype(even in the first couple of UFCs there is no MMA just a style or2 vs. a style or2 and the guy died about 20years before the firs one!). For his time he was very advanced. Sure if I look at things objectively one must admited that since the 70s things have gone forward so much in training science, available styles to train, evolution of style threw trial and error that against todays top warriors he wouldnt be SOOO great in comparison. These days every UFC top fighter is like the governer of California :) Even in the beginings of the UFC people competing were more or less like you and me. Things to think about.

Yey BL had multiple street fights. I watched an interview with his brother in which he says he went out in traditional Chinese clothes(which was pretty weird in those days for a chinese kid as even older people wore Western clothing) and he provoked everyone that looked at him the wrong way. That way he got fight experience. Besides, in the days when he way still in HK, BL was a very good boxer: I don't know the specifics(you can probably get them on wikipedia) but if mermory serves me correctly he way first multiple times and achieved victories with knockout several times in the begining rounds. Also he had a couple of street fights in America also. All of this, I believe, can be checked on his wikipedia page.
 

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I don't believe he would have cared to even enter into the MMA fights for anyone to find out.

As everyone knows, he was all about fighting for real, not with a limited set of rules(Yes, MMA has plenty of rules).

But that's just my opinion, maybe he would. Here is a quote of his to think about though:
Do you really think this is true? I think that Bruce was kind of like a gangsta rapper. He may have started with real street cred, but the more success he had, the further he divorced himself from that lifestyle. This doesn't in any way diminish his accomplishments, in my opinion. I just think it's reality and human nature.

My opinion is that, like Chuck Norris, he would be an actor, a teacher and an entrepeneur first, and then a martial artist. If anything, he would be a supporter of sports like MMA, but I'd be very surprised if he ever competed. Not because he'd be worried about losing, but that he would have too much to lose. His reputation was marketable.
 

Yoshiyahu

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Some of Bruce Lees fights are documented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_lee#Fights



The thing about Bruce which I admire the most was that he was a progressive martial artist

If he had been alive and young in this decade he would undoubtedly be training how most MMA guys train. Certainly he was looking at grappling towards the end of his life (Enter The Dragon's first fight against Sammo Hung for example)

He had extremely high speed, an amazing fitness and incredible knowledge of martial arts

But I think what you are referring to would have been whether his kung fu alone would have held up in the octagon. I would say that on most occasions yes. But I don't think/know he would have been as high profile as most of the other fighters

Rumour had it that he had many streetfights when he was growing up in Hong Kong which would have helped immensley with his mental toughness and ability to take a hit

There is some great footage on outube of him sparring, but as the original post says - because there was no
documented competitive fights or stats, it is hard to compare him to the warriors of today

I think we should acknowledge Bruce for being one of the biggest influences in martial arts and leave it at that
Speculation is fun , but could drive you crazy
Pirates or Ninjas. Pirates or Ninjas. Pirates or Ninjas
 

Yoshiyahu

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Yes being a good street fighter is totally different than to competitions. I think Kimbo Slice has showed us that just because your a good street fighter won't make you top dog in MMA.


Eru Il繳vatar;1108409 said:
I think one should take in to context that he lived long before the whole MMA hype(even in the first couple of UFCs there is no MMA just a style or2 vs. a style or2 and the guy died about 20years before the firs one!). For his time he was very advanced. Sure if I look at things objectively one must admited that since the 70s things have gone forward so much in training science, available styles to train, evolution of style threw trial and error that against todays top warriors he wouldnt be SOOO great in comparison. These days every UFC top fighter is like the governer of California :) Even in the beginings of the UFC people competing were more or less like you and me. Things to think about.

Yey BL had multiple street fights. I watched an interview with his brother in which he says he went out in traditional Chinese clothes(which was pretty weird in those days for a chinese kid as even older people wore Western clothing) and he provoked everyone that looked at him the wrong way. That way he got fight experience. Besides, in the days when he way still in HK, BL was a very good boxer: I don't know the specifics(you can probably get them on wikipedia) but if mermory serves me correctly he way first multiple times and achieved victories with knockout several times in the begining rounds. Also he had a couple of street fights in America also. All of this, I believe, can be checked on his wikipedia page.
 
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Zero

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Thanks Yoshiyahu for that helpful list and information on Bruce's fights and "altercations" - very interesting.

I definitely agree with those that say so much of what is important about Bruce was his progressive outlook and philosophies. It's always good to know that the philosophies have some sort of realistic grounding though when it comes to fighting and SD; and in my view from reading Bruce's writings I think this is certainly the case.
 

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From the wiki site, it doesn't look like those fights were well documented. How reliable are those accounts?
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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From the wiki site, it doesn't look like those fights were well documented. How reliable are those accounts?

Who knows? Wouldn't be surprised if some things are not documented as they realy happened. Even his (argubly most famous) fight with Wong Jack Man is FUL of controversy. But who cares? Though BL is one of mine biggest MA inspirations I would'nt give a FXXX if I found out that WJM kicked his *** like BL was a little girl :)
 

Yoshiyahu

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Well I guess the best place to start would be a biography about bruce lee. To find out accurate his fights were...


Eru Il繳vatar;1108530 said:
Who knows? Wouldn't be surprised if some things are not documented as they realy happened. Even his (argubly most famous) fight with Wong Jack Man is FUL of controversy. But who cares? Though BL is one of mine biggest MA inspirations I would'nt give a FXXX if I found out that WJM kicked his *** like BL was a little girl :)
 

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