Health and Safety Madness or Sensible Restriction?

[Sukerkin]

I remember with great fondness my 'experiments' with chemistry sets when I was a lad. Wonderful treasure trove of things to make flames, cause explosions, knit with molten glass and create all manner of fabulous colours and smells .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19050342

To this day, my parents house has mysterious coloured circular marks in the plaster of the ceiling where some of my more vigorous investigative chemical reactions blew the bung out of the flask :lol:.

 

[Tez3]

Sadly I think it's lack of interest caused by lack of knowledge. Science of the sort that you could use one of these kits for has been superseded by computers. Children know more about certain sciences than they used to but I'm afraid chemistry takes a back seat these days.

 

[billc]

On a related topic, but not exactly chemistry sets...Bucky Ball magnets...

http://michellemalkin.com/2012/08/01/nanny-state-job-killers-the-feds-war-on-buckyballs/

Last week, the agency filed an “administrative complaint” against the manufacturer/distributor of Buckyballs and Buckycubes, New York-based Maxfield and Oberton Holdings LLC. The legal action — only the second of its kind in 11 years — seeks to stop all sales of Buckyballs products, force a recall and order full refunds. According to the bureaucrats, “dozens of young children and teenagers swallowed” the adult desk toy, causing “internal injuries requiring surgeries.”
A dozen swallowing incidents have been linked by the CPSC to Buckyballs since 2009. Compare that to the estimated 30,000 emergency room visits that occur every year as a result of children swallowing government-minted coins.
There are no fewer than five cautionary labels on every Buckyballs or Buckycubes product box; the company distributes an educational video on the dangers of swallowing the toys. And Maxfield and Oberton has cooperated with the government on safety policy since its inception.
Yet, several feckless retailers (including Brookstone, Amazon and Urban Outfitters) under the regulatory gun have already yanked the magnets from their virtual and physical shelves despite the company’s clear warnings that Buckyballs and Buckycubes are for adults — not children.

 

[pgsmith]

Gotta love a good nanny state! .... NOT!
I figure if you work too hard to protect idiots from themselves, you work against evolution.

 

[kitkatninja]

Personally I believe it's a combination of H&S gone mad in order to "protect" the new generation of kids with parents that either kids themselves or parents that are too thick, coupled with this new generation of claims (sue) with their "ambulance chaser" solicitors.

I remember as a kid climbing trees, playing with chem sets, basically doing kids stuff... Now a days, half the things we got up to aren't allowed due to "Health and Safety". If kids aren't going to learn, experience and think for themselves (at least under a responsible parents supervision - depending on the activity) - what kind of adult will that breed for the future?

 

[pgsmith]

If kids aren't going to learn, experience and think for themselves (at least under a responsible parents supervision - depending on the activity) - what kind of adult will that breed for the future?

Exactly the kind that those in power wish for? Docile, easily manipulated, easily led.

 

[Tez3]

Far from being 'banned' by the health and safety brigade you can buy them at quite a few outlets including the Science Museum, Amazon and a lot of other sites, there's even advice on buying them.
http://www.sciencemuseumshop.co.uk/category/kids-gifts/experiments.html

http://www.amazon.co.uk/chemistry-s...rh=i:aps,k:chemistry sets for children&page=1

http://www.toysandlearning.co.uk/chemistry-sets.php

http://www.discoverthis.com/chemistry.html

 

[Sukerkin]

The point is not that they are banned, Tez, it is that they are dumbed down and made 'safe'.

It is symptomatic of what has been going wrong with our society for two generations now. Wrap them up in cotton wool, don't punish them when they do wrong, don't expect them to actually have to learn anything when they are in education (just give them 'qualifications' anyway), don't expect them to have to work to get anything ...

... no wonder the West is done and the East is going to dominate the latter part of the 21st Century.

 

[Tez3]

The point is not that they are banned, Tez, it is that they are dumbed down and made 'safe'.

It is symptomatic of what has been going wrong with our society for two generations now. Wrap them up in cotton wool, don't punish them when they do wrong, don't expect them to actually have to learn anything when they are in education (just give them 'qualifications' anyway), don't expect them to have to work to get anything ...

... no wonder the West is done and the East is going to dominate the latter part of the 21st Century.

I disagree, it's not dumbing them down at all, it's realising that not everything in the past is golden. Just because it's what used to happen doesn't make it safe, giving children cynanide isn't responsible parenting at all. The old 'it never hurt me' argument is a poor one.
I've worked with children's organisations for many years, in Scouts and Guides as well as martial arts, it's the media that is telling you all this guff about dumbing things down, that children can't compete etc. It's rubbish, children all over the country are competeing, are doing 'tough' things and are possibly brighter and better adjusted than they have ever been.

Take all this 'children only sit at computers these days', wrong! there's hundreds of thousands of children every week playing football, rugby, cricket, athletics, dance, Cheer, horse riding, biking, skateboarding,street dancing, gymnastics etc etc and they are all competing. Watch the skateboarding and tell me that's soft, watch the kids play rugby! Where do you think the youngsters ahve come from that are in the Olympic teams? Scouting and Guiding is at it's highest figures ever with waiting lists, theres hundreds of thousands of kids in the Army, Navy and RAF cadets out there learnng to shoot, glide, camp, yomp cross country, sail, etc, the Girls and Boys Brigade are also attracting big numbers it simply isn't true and it maligns todays children when people see them as weak, they are far from it!

Children are born with an inate sense of fairness and the vast majority, not the ones you see picked out by the media, are taught right from wrong and do behave, alas in today's culture its the minority that the majority are judged by. I'm sorry, I get very annoyed with all this 'dumbed down' children rot, it's far from true. Look at the Duke of Edinburgh's Award scheme, look at the badges in Scouting and Guiding, pop into your local leisure centre and watch the kids classes in gymnastics, martial arts, badminton, tennis etc etc. Take a look at real kids not the kids the media want you to look at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Duke_of_Edinburgh's_Award
"Around 275,000 participants are taking part in their DofE programme at any time in the United Kingdom."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17753771
"The annual census also shows that total UK membership now stands at 525,327, up more than 80,000 from the lowest recorded membership of 444,936 in 2005."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandst.../2012/feb/27/girl-guides-strength-to-strength

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_Force
Cadets: 47,721 (2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Training_Corps
(60,000 Cadets)

http://www.sea-cadets.org/
http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/young-people/cadets.aspx

Schools also take children away for adventure training to various parts of the country, the local place for schools in my area is Bewerley Park http://www.outdoored.co.uk/bewerleypark/, places like this are all over the country. There's still the OutwardBound Centres too that are well used by schools and young people. http://www.outwardbound.org.uk/

Just a few organisations ,a little taste of what young people do in this country today. Be proud of todays young people and look beyond the media depiction of them.

 

[granfire]

I disagree, it's not dumbing them down at all, it's realising that not everything in the past is golden. Just because it's what used to happen doesn't make it safe, giving children cynanide isn't responsible parenting at all. The old 'it never hurt me' argument is a poor one.
I've worked with children's organisations for many years, in Scouts and Guides as well as martial arts, it's the media that is telling you all this guff about dumbing things down, that children can't compete etc. It's rubbish, children all over the country are competeing, are doing 'tough' things and are possibly brighter and better adjusted than they have ever been.

Take all this 'children only sit at computers these days', wrong! there's hundreds of thousands of children every week playing football, rugby, cricket, athletics, dance, Cheer, horse riding, biking, skateboarding,street dancing, gymnastics etc etc and they are all competing. Watch the skateboarding and tell me that's soft, watch the kids play rugby! Where do you think the youngsters ahve come from that are in the Olympic teams? Scouting and Guiding is at it's highest figures ever with waiting lists, theres hundreds of thousands of kids in the Army, Navy and RAF cadets out there learnng to shoot, glide, camp, yomp cross country, sail, etc, the Girls and Boys Brigade are also attracting big numbers it simply isn't true and it maligns todays children when people see them as weak, they are far from it!

Children are born with an inate sense of fairness and the vast majority, not the ones you see picked out by the media, are taught right from wrong and do behave, alas in today's culture its the minority that the majority are judged by. I'm sorry, I get very annoyed with all this 'dumbed down' children rot, it's far from true. Look at the Duke of Edinburgh's Award scheme, look at the badges in Scouting and Guiding, pop into your local leisure centre and watch the kids classes in gymnastics, martial arts, badminton, tennis etc etc. Take a look at real kids not the kids the media want you to look at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Duke_of_Edinburgh's_Award
"Around 275,000 participants are taking part in their DofE programme at any time in the United Kingdom."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17753771
"The annual census also shows that total UK membership now stands at 525,327, up more than 80,000 from the lowest recorded membership of 444,936 in 2005."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandst.../2012/feb/27/girl-guides-strength-to-strength

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_Force
Cadets: 47,721 (2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Training_Corps
(60,000 Cadets)

http://www.sea-cadets.org/
http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/young-people/cadets.aspx

Schools also take children away for adventure training to various parts of the country, the local place for schools in my area is Bewerley Park http://www.outdoored.co.uk/bewerleypark/, places like this are all over the country. There's still the OutwardBound Centres too that are well used by schools and young people. http://www.outwardbound.org.uk/

Just a few organisations ,a little taste of what young people do in this country today. Be proud of todays young people and look beyond the media depiction of them.

while I am involved with much the same (similar) organizations, I have to say that at least in my corner of the world they are bubble wrapped and sheltered and since above mentioned youth activities are not compulsory, you only come in contact with the youth who is not sheltered and cuddled.
I have met a few nice kids but golly, when i was their age, without net and limited TV I was a lot more wordly and educated....

 

[Sukerkin]

All I can say is that we live in different worlds, Tez. In my professional life I see the fruits of what we have sown these past couple of generations and with the best will in the world I cannot agree with you.

There are very good reasons why as our company has grown so has the percentage of non-British-born employees. It's because engineering is hard and Media Studies graduates who have been handed their degrees just for turning up don't cut it.

In my non-professional world I also see the fruits of those wasted decades too - the 'good' kids who you work with clearly don't live anywhere where I have.

So there you have it, our non-British friends. You have a paradox of views here. Which is real? Who has the rose tinted glasses? Or are both aspects real?

Is making chemistry sets 'safe' responsible or is it a sign that youth mustn't be allowed to hurt itself in case it learns something?

For me it is one more sign of the few carrying the many - that imbalance whereby if you dig into the figures you find that one half of the working population, who have made the effort and succeeded despite the system, are paying for everyone else. It's enough to make you vote Tory.

 

[pgsmith]

I've worked with children's organisations for many years, in Scouts and Guides as well as martial arts, it's the media that is telling you all this guff about dumbing things down, that children can't compete etc. It's rubbish, children all over the country are competeing, are doing 'tough' things and are possibly brighter and better adjusted than they have ever been.

While that is certainly true, it is NOT the norm for the majority of kids. I was a Scoutmaster for quite a few years, and I can't tell you how many arguments I had with parents upset because their little Johnny was upset because his patrol lost at something. A large part of Scouting is teaching the boys how to be winners, which means they have to learn how to lose. You'd be astounded at the number of parents that were terribly upset because their son had to learn how to deal with the pain of losing, which he'd never done before.

Is making chemistry sets 'safe' responsible or is it a sign that youth mustn't be allowed to hurt itself in case it learns something?

Not just a sign that youth mustn't be allowed to hurt themselves, but also a sign that parents shouldn't have to assume the responsibility for teaching their children how not to hurt themselves. A dumbing down all around in my opinion.

 

[billc]

Wow Sukerkin, sounds like your voting for Romney...if you could...

 

[granfire]

Wow Sukerkin, sounds like your voting for Romney...if you could...

:lfao:

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps it's that I see the working class kids who certainly aren't bubble wrapped and you see the middle class ones.
The kids I see from places like Middlesborough, Leeds, Newcastle etc certainly aren't soft, far from it, they tend to be hard cases. The kids in the gangs carrying knives etc aren't bubble wrapped either being introduced early to life and its problems. These are kids who wouldn't be given chemistry sets at any time in our history. The kids I know are the ones like the army cadets from our inner cities who are trying to do something so they can have a future not the ones with 'yummy mummies' who lunch. The ones like the Cheer group from Leeds the BBC made a documentary about which keeps kids off the street and gives them something constructive to do, these kids parents wouldn't know a chemistry set if you stuck one under their noses http://www.dazl.org.uk/DAZL-Diamonds/.

The world where parents buy their children chemistry sets is the world of Swallows and Amazons, a middle class life that the majority of families simply know nothing about, it's a romantasied life for the few not reality for the many. Chemistry set? Most families are struggling to buy school uniform. Wake up and smell the coffee guys, it's not the lack of chemistry sets or bubble wrap that is the problem we have with our children who are doing actually a marvellous job, the real children that is not the chattering middle class, move house to get to the best school children but the real children of Britain. Look at what is really going on, there's no bubble wrap, there's no even any brown paper for the majority of kids, that's why so many organisations are reaching into the places nice middle class people don't go to help our children, thats why youth numbers are up. Look beyond those who can afford more than one pair of shoes for their kids and look at the real problems we have.

Life in Conservative Britain
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/t...ry-amid-child-poverty-figures-84229-28278563/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/the-no...-poverty-it-s-time-for-a-nation-of-aspiration
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/jun/29/socialexclusion.politics

Child poverty isn't not having a television or chemistry set, it's a very real spectre that hangs over us, with more and more job cuts, more cuts this govenment is making everywhere the very real poverty of not having enough to eat or enough to clothe children is only going to get worse. Worrying about soft children who are the minority isn't the answer, it's not me who's living with rose tinted glasses I'm afraid.

 

[elder999]

The point is not that they are banned, Tez, it is that they are dumbed down and made 'safe'.

It is symptomatic of what has been going wrong with our society for two generations now. Wrap them up in cotton wool, don't punish them when they do wrong, don't expect them to actually have to learn anything when they are in education (just give them 'qualifications' anyway), don't expect them to have to work to get anything ...

... no wonder the West is done and the East is going to dominate the latter part of the 21st Century.

On the other hand, the chemistry set could make you wind up like me. At 13, I put a polybottle bomb in someones toilet reservoir-I'd mixed antifreeze with something else-and when they flushed the toilet, it blew up.

Not exactly the skill or knowledge you want someone with the impulse control of a 13 year old to have, even if the old guy did deserve it: it was just to scare him, and that's all it did, but still........

And the whole, "Let's mix these together and see what happens" mentality-frankly, I'm surprised that more kids from our generation didn't die from their chemistry sets. I also wonder how much it has to do with anti-terror, to be honest-I did lots of things with toilets and human contact, back in the day, that would be considered acts of terror today.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not trying to gainsay your experiences, Tez; just noting what I see. It's important to try and resolve both those framents into a coherent picture.

Just as a sidenote, I think that, as you were making your point above, you may have forgotten that my background was about as far away from Middle Class as you could get in Britain of the 60's and 70's ... assuming that your words were more directed to me than to the general reader? Perhaps the fact that I used the education system as a 'ladder' to escape the poverty of my birth makes me a bit more critical of those I see getting handed an easy ride, with far more material wealth and far fewer handicaps than I ever had?

Despite that poverty, I still got a chemstry set with which to try to remodel our Council House and so did all the lads in our street. Maybe we were the Aspirational Dirt Poor and represented an anomaly?

 

[crushing]

I remember with great fondness my 'experiments' with chemistry sets when I was a lad. Wonderful treasure trove of things to make flames, cause explosions, knit with molten glass and create all manner of fabulous colours and smells .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19050342

To this day, my parents house has mysterious coloured circular marks in the plaster of the ceiling where some of my more vigorous investigative chemical reactions blew the bung out of the flask :lol:.

What a timely discussion! I just bought my son a chemistry set and a chemistry book this week for his birthday upon his request as he approached his 8th birthday. I loved hearing his request both because of his interest in the sciences and it brought back some of my own childhood memories. I loved showing off the experiments to my family, particularly sprinkling powdered iron over a flame and soaking pieces of paper or wood in different chemicals and then burn them after they dry to create different brilliant colors.

If I remember correctly, I think the chemistry set I had as a child contained a lot more dangerous chemicals and far fewer warnings.

 

[crushing]

On the other hand, the chemistry set could make you wind up like me. At 13, I put a polybottle bomb in someones toilet reservoir-I'd mixed antifreeze with something else-and when they flushed the toilet, it blew up.

Not exactly the skill or knowledge you want someone with the impulse control of a 13 year old to have, even if the old guy did deserve it: it was just to scare him, and that's all it did, but still........

And the whole, "Let's mix these together and see what happens" mentality-frankly, I'm surprised that more kids from our generation didn't die from their chemistry sets. I also wonder how much it has to do with anti-terror, to be honest-I did lots of things with toilets and human contact, back in the day, that would be considered acts of terror today.

With that said, I can't help but think of Fermi stacking a pile of uranium blocks in a Chicago gymnasium. :lol:

 

[Tez3]

I'm not trying to gainsay your experiences, Tez; just noting what I see. It's important to try and resolve both those framents into a coherent picture.

Just as a sidenote, I think that, as you were making your point above, you may have forgotten that my background was about as far away from Middle Class as you could get in Britain of the 60's and 70's ... assuming that your words were more directed to me than to the general reader? Perhaps the fact that I used the education system as a 'ladder' to escape the poverty of my birth makes me a bit more critical of those I see getting handed an easy ride, with far more material wealth and far fewer handicaps than I ever had?

Despite that poverty, I still got a chemstry set with which to try to remodel our Council House and so did all the lads in our street. Maybe we were the Aspirational Dirt Poor and represented an anomaly?

I wasn't aiming it you at all, I just get exasperated when it's generally assumed children are softer, mollycoddled etc. than they used to be. I'm talking about modern middle class families who the media use to illustrate life in the UK,just because the schools in the Home Counties they send their little darlings to don't have school sports day doesn't mean all schools are like that, just because their kids don't play out in the street, doesn't mean kids all over the country aren't. Just because they are soft on their kids doesn't mean all kids, infact the majority of kids are.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/aug/01/children.failure

"Teachers in Scotland are to toughen up their "mollycoddled middle-class" pupils with classes on how to cope with disappointment and failure, it emerged today."