Hapkido instructor claims that jump spinning kicks in TKD came from Hapkido

[Acronym]

This is going to be a long one. You posted some good videos.

That will all change once the fighters become skilled at taking advantage of the high kicks. Then it will be back to the low kicks.

For example, if he saw enough of the kick to shell up like this then he could equally train to make moving foward at a 45 degree angle towards the standing leg a trainted reponse. The closer he is to the kicker the less effective that kick will be. I can tell by how close he is that is well within range attack that standing leg.

The only time I've blocked a kick like this was at the last minute against a round house to my ribs. The kick was part of a counter that came after I attack and I didn't have this much time to respond. 45 degrees forward (left or right ) would have taking a lot of this kick. His stance is set up perfectly to move forward to his left, but he didn't so he ate that kick.

Even if it was side kick, if he could move forward before the power came then he would have still been in a good position.
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Front leg sweep... Missed opportunity
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Moving backwards instead of forwards. Moving forward. Side kick to the standing leg would have broke the power in this kick. Instead he moves back.
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There were a quite a few which were good kicks but worse defense. Things like bending over and getting kicked in the face is a never ending lecture in Kung Fu schools. There were like 7 kicks where the defender lens into the the incoming kick. To me this is the most dangerous kick along with brutal leg kicks.

The reason that this kick is so dangerous is because it exploits the limitations of the body. People with broad shoulders / wide chest, have an opening right down the center of the body. The only way to close it is to not face forward like what you see in this picture.. The second limitation is a person's field of vision. The kick is traveling outside of his field of vision and he literally cannot see it. He can see the knee and the shin, but he can't see the foot which is why he's caught in the head lights.

When the brain can't compute the arrival time of a strike it cannot see and when a strike is outside of the field of vision then brain will compute other stuff. That's what makes this kick more dangerous. Everyone else saw the kick coming and just did the wrong thing. This guy get nailed and never sees it coming. He seels the knee, but not the business end of this kick.
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But everything else were of people leaning into the kicks like they were trying to use the kick like a pillow. That's a foundation issue, . Back to basics


I saw the Tony Ferguson sweep. I'm glad he gave it a try but it look like he was still trying to figure it out just how to use it. Not sure I would call it a Kung Fu sweep thought.

I don't think I've seen this one before, but this is a guy who understands high kicks. I'm not saying that because he sweeps the guy, I'm staying it because of what's needed to set it up. Which is why did a screen shot of this. The timing that is required to pull sweeps off is insane compared to some of the other stuff. Which is why I was kind of surprised when Acronym really didn't realize that I knew what timing is. He knew from his first movement that the kick was coming..

The kicker only sees the head and the torso, but the guy sweeping has to be aware of foot position in relations to the kicker. The sweeper's left foot is in range (remember I often say people don't pay attention to their feet.), the kicer is paying attention. That left foot is already starting the spin. Back sweeps can either drop, or lean and that's what causes the kick to miss.

He has a good "Old man sweep" That's the sweep where you are too old to lower your sweep, The lower the sweep the more power the sweep will have. The sweep catches the back of the knee so the legs just folds. Had the sweep been on the Achilles Tendon of the kicker, then the kicker would have been in the air, then on his back. But excellent timing on it. The other thing that I like about that "old man sweep" is that you can turn it into a low spinning heel kick.
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This kicks and sweeps have a similar motion. If you can do one, then you should be able to do the other. Just as easily

Do you know how ridiculous you look with arm chair philosophy analysis of a fight? You weren't the one getting a kick thrown at you. You have NO IDEA how you would react unless you actually compete in there.

 

[Acronym]

and since you are so hung up on sweeps. Here is a successful one. It didn't change the outcome of the fight

 

[dvcochran]

What I think you might be missing is that the "errors" you see in the fighters getting knocked out aren't due to ignorance or lack of skill or training. They are "forced" errors induced by the attacker.

For example, why were several of the fighters caught leaning into the kicks? A common reason is that the attacker had faked them them out into expecting a punch from a different angle which that head movement would have been an appropriate response for. Another reason is that the attacker has just been dominating the wrestling and the defender is both tired and trying escape the clinch and regain their posture (but gets knocked out before they can fix their structure).

The defender gets caught moving backwards? Yep, the attacker started the combination with aggressive punching and waited to kick until they saw their opponent was moving back and not in a good position to change direction to counter the kick.

That spin wheel kick KO by Uriah Hall - you say that his opponent "if he saw enough of the kick to shell up like this then he could equally train to make moving foward at a 45 degree angle towards the standing leg a trainted reponse". The problem is, that his opponent just saw movement but wasn't able to process in time what the attack actually was. I don't think he even knew for sure if it was a kick, a punch, a fake, or what direction it was coming from.

This is part of why high kicks work better at the professional level than at the amateur level. Human reaction time is limited by the speed of our nervous system. Typically about 1/5 to 1/4 of a second is the fastest we can perceive a stimulus and initiate any sort of response. If we have to interpret the stimulus and decide on an appropriate reaction, then the time becomes significantly longer. So how can fighters effectively react to and counter punches that are completed in less than a 1/4 second? The secret is that the process doesn't start after the punch begins. A good fighter reads his opponent, knows what attacks are possible from a given position, and then picks up the cues to know (at least subconsciously on a probabilistic level) what type of strike is coming and begin the counter as (or even before) the attack begins. If a fighter can throw a high kick fast enough to so that the opponent can't see it coming and non-telegraphically enough that the opponent can't read it, then the unpredictability of the attack may make it worth it. Most casual hobbyists throw high kicks which are slow enough and telegraphed enough that they aren't too hard to counter.

In the case of the Uriah Hall spinning wheel kick KO, the kick took approximately 3/4 of a second to travel from the ground to Adam Cella's face. He proceeded the kick with a fake in the opposite direction. (If that fake had been a real attack, then moving forward at a 45 degree angle could have been a costly mistake for his opponent.) He then transitioned seamlessly from that fake to the spin kick with no hesitation, wasted movement, or telegraphing. By the time Cella's brain had a chance to process what was happening, it was too late. Probably he had no idea what Hall was actually throwing until he woke up and watched the replay video.

Sir, that was eloquently said. I admire someone who can break down things so well.

The documented raw processing time of a signal from the eyes, to the brain, resulted, and sent to an extremity is 3/10's of a second. The last time I looked this up was over a decade ago so possibly the computer/gamer age has made this slightly faster as you stated.

I like using the bleacher coach or armchair quarterback analogy. Most of the time it is much easier for a person to see and process an action from a distance. Ala, the bleacher coach. They always have a better answer to a players/fighters action and 'know' exactly what should have happened. Put this same person In the exact same encounter and they may not even be able to register what just happened to them.
In other words, it is much easier to see a punch being thrown from 10 feet away versus one being thrown while coming out of a clinch.

That is a great description of Uriah Hall's KO in you last paragraph.
To add to the opponents quandary, the fake initiated a .3/sec mental process immediately followed by another .3/sec process. Assuming 100% efficiency (highly unlikely) that left the opponent roughly .15/sec to actually make a physical response.
That is a very, very tall order. And usually where the armchair quarterbacks and bleacher coaches start chiming in.

There is seldom one thing that makes a KO work. The chess match, speed, timing, fatigue, etc... all play a factor.

For me, having knocked out others and also having been knocked out in competition puts this in a different light. It sure will give a person the yips for a while after being KO'ed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Brain bugg. I meant that I lean forward and only have support from the ball of the foot in my supporting leg, which makes me an easier target to sweep than when both feet are firmly placed on the ground

It depends on the type of sweep being used. back sweep probably won't work it. I would go with a stronger sweep or a foot hook.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wait your meant to move your legs to slip? I normally literally move my head/torso when i do it. I took to having habit of if i strike with my right hand i move my head to the left and the reverse with the left so i at least move it to avoid getting counter clocked. Just tried it out, i normally move my torso with my head to either side, so that might translate to using my legs.

Id argue that habit is better than keeping my head stationary.

Yeah it's a complicated method but it makes sense when done in the context of TMA techniques. If I move my foot to the left, then my head and torso are off your centerline. If I shuffle left or right then I'm completely off your centerline. if you only move your head then I can still strike your torso.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you know how ridiculous you look with arm chair philosophy analysis of a fight? You weren't the one getting a kick thrown at you. You have NO IDEA how you would react unless you actually compete in there.

Believe what you wish. I spent an entire year showing that I can do what I claim and showing video of it. won't be going through that again. train your response and you'll do what you trained.

 

[Acronym]

Believe what you wish. I spent an entire year showing that I can do what I claim and showing video of it. won't be going through that again. train your response and you'll do what you trained.

You did what exactly? It might come as a chock to your inflated ego but I have no idea who you are.

 

[Acronym]

train your response and you'll do what you trained.

Depends on how you train it. Have they tried to knock you out?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Depends on how you train it. Have they tried to knock you out?

Some have tried. I've done hard sparring before and have been in fights. I've been kicked in the face before and I have been caught with my hands down, I've been kneed, pinned, and kicked in the groin. I've thrown people before, including once in a real fight.

I've broken my finger twice in sparring, I've been dropped to my knees from kicks and punches to my stomach. I haven't been slammed yet but I have been thrown. I've been dazed as well.

The truth is that none of that matters to you and will not change your thoughts on what I've said

 

[Acronym]

Some have tried. I've done hard sparring before and have been in fights. I've been kicked in the face before and I have been caught with my hands down, I've been kneed, pinned, and kicked in the groin. I've thrown people before, including once in a real fight.

I've broken my finger twice in sparring, I've been dropped to my knees from kicks and punches to my stomach. I haven't been slammed yet but I have been thrown. I've been dazed as well.

The truth is that none of that matters to you and will not change your thoughts on what I've said

Where did this take place? Most kung fu places that I know of are opposed to sparring, especially hard sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where did this take place? Most kung fu places that I know of are opposed to sparring, especially hard sparring.

As has been pointed out to you before, there's far more variation in MA than you're aware of.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To me they are errors because of the way I've been trained. For example, It's forbidden to bend over like that for the same reason. This is stressed so much that other TMAs stress the importance of having an up right stance. If you need to duck, then lower your stance. If you need to slip a punch then do so by moving your feet and not by weaving your head.

I'd call it a matter of stylistic tradeoffs vs "errors."

You are correct that if you completely eschew boxing style head movement (bobbing, weaving, leaning to avoid head strikes), then you don't run the risk of inadvertently leaning into a strike (typically a kick or knee, sometimes an uppercut) that you have misjudged. On the other hand, if you rely only on footwork and blocks/parries to protect your head, then you will likely get hit with some punches that you might have avoided with head movement.

The professional MMA fighters who choose to include head movement in their repertoire are very aware of the dangers and the downsides of that tactic. They know that it caries more risk in MMA than in boxing, due to the possibility of kicks and knees. They use the tactic because they judge the rewards to be worth the risks. Not all top level MMA fighters use that kind of head movement, but some great champions make extensive use of it and have proven that it can be very effective even in that context.

All I see when I spar is movement. Punching movement and kicking movements are different and the movement actually begins before the punch or kick shows up. For kicks the body shifts a certain way, For punches the body will shift weight another way. The best way to detect this movement is to learn how to look at things using the rods of your eye instead of the cones. The cones will give you detail but the rods will allow you to detect motion better than the cones. Sounds crazy but this is true.

A lot of times when you see me just taking hits from my sparring partner, it's because I'm training my eye sight to learn the movements. Think of it like this. When a big dog walks by you focus on it. That's the cones in your eye working. But when you catch small things like gnats and mosquitoes flying your cones are picking that up. Then when you switch to your cones to try to smash the mosquito or gnat then you will sometimes loose site of it. Then you'll switch back to your rods in your eyes to pick up movement. You may not be able to tell if it's a gnat or a mosquito you just know it's a bug flying.

When I spar, I don't look at your chest, or your eyes, or your hands or your body. I will actually look a few feet behind where you are actually standing, this allows me to detect your motion. Defensive motion looks different from attacking motion as well. But when you see the attacking motion, don't process if it's a kick or a punch. View it as as an attack that is about to happen, then try to land your attack before your your opponent can launch his / hers.

All of this sounds easy but it isn't because using rods means that I'm looking at the person out of focus and the natural tendency is to put things in focus. It's also something that I would train as light that only stays on if your are pressing it. I say this because I did this for about 30 minutes and it took a while for my eyes to be able to focus. Activate it for a minute and then turn it off for 5.

This is why I don't process what kind of punch or what kind of kick is coming my way. The only thing I need to process is when you are about to do something and was it a weight shift for a punch or for a kick.
I don't think what comes next because I don't have time to think about what technique I'm going to respond with. My sparring class address things like that. Again I know I'm probably making this sound easy but it's not. I had to train a lot of bad habits out and natural reactions and I wasn't able to get rid of them all.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly, but this is all the same stuff I was talking about. When I talk about the limits of human reaction, I'm not talking about consciously thinking "oh, I see that he's throwing a spinning wheel kick, I should counter by moving in at a 45 degree angle and sweeping the support leg." I'm talking about the neurological limits of the human body to perceive that any sort of movement is taking place at all.

The way around those limits, as I mentioned earlier, is being able to read the opponent and process what sort of attack is coming before it actually begins. The methods you allude to (defocused gaze, peripheral vision, observing weight shifts, developing subconscious pattern recognition, etc) are standard fare among fighters for developing that ability.

You do, BTW, need to process what sort of punch or kick is coming. You may not do it consciously - there's generally not enough time for that against a fast, skilled fighter. The identification of what's coming happens via subconscious pattern recognition under the hood. If you can't distinguish between specific attacks, then you'll try to block a high punch and get hit in the gut. You'll try to parry a jab and get hit with a hook. You'll try to check a low kick and get kicked in the face. The training you describe is exactly the sort of thing which builds that sort of pattern recognition.

The flip side, of course, is for a fighter to be able to defeat his opponent's read on him. Feints, fakes, non-telegraphic movement, establishing patterns then switching them up, starting movements with multiple ending options - anything to prevent the opponent's brain from being able to process what is happening quickly enough to react until the attack is on the way and it's too late to react. Uriah Hall's spin kick was extremely fast, powerful, and pinpoint accurate, but the real deciding factor in his KO was that he won the battle of deception vs perception which prevented his opponent from ever seeing the kick coming.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd call it a matter of stylistic tradeoffs vs "errors."

You are correct that if you completely eschew boxing style head movement (bobbing, weaving, leaning to avoid head strikes), then you don't run the risk of inadvertently leaning into a strike (typically a kick or knee, sometimes an uppercut) that you have misjudged. On the other hand, if you rely only on footwork and blocks/parries to protect your head, then you will likely get hit with some punches that you might have avoided with head movement.

The professional MMA fighters who choose to include head movement in their repertoire are very aware of the dangers and the downsides of that tactic. They know that it caries more risk in MMA than in boxing, due to the possibility of kicks and knees. They use the tactic because they judge the rewards to be worth the risks. Not all top level MMA fighters use that kind of head movement, but some great champions make extensive use of it and have proven that it can be very effective even in that context.





Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly, but this is all the same stuff I was talking about. When I talk about the limits of human reaction, I'm not talking about consciously thinking "oh, I see that he's throwing a spinning wheel kick, I should counter by moving in at a 45 degree angle and sweeping the support leg." I'm talking about the neurological limits of the human body to perceive that any sort of movement is taking place at all.

The way around those limits, as I mentioned earlier, is being able to read the opponent and process what sort of attack is coming before it actually begins. The methods you allude to (defocused gaze, peripheral vision, observing weight shifts, developing subconscious pattern recognition, etc) are standard fare among fighters for developing that ability.

You do, BTW, need to process what sort of punch or kick is coming. You may not do it consciously - there's generally not enough time for that against a fast, skilled fighter. The identification of what's coming happens via subconscious pattern recognition under the hood. If you can't distinguish between specific attacks, then you'll try to block a high punch and get hit in the gut. You'll try to parry a jab and get hit with a hook. You'll try to check a low kick and get kicked in the face. The training you describe is exactly the sort of thing which builds that sort of pattern recognition.

The flip side, of course, is for a fighter to be able to defeat his opponent's read on him. Feints, fakes, non-telegraphic movement, establishing patterns then switching them up, starting movements with multiple ending options - anything to prevent the opponent's brain from being able to process what is happening quickly enough to react until the attack is on the way and it's too late to react. Uriah Hall's spin kick was extremely fast, powerful, and pinpoint accurate, but the real deciding factor in his KO was that he won the battle of deception vs perception which prevented his opponent from ever seeing the kick coming.

It's a strategic battle over pattern recognition. Can I recognize your patterns (both patterns of techniques, and the pattern of movement that leads to a specific technique) and can you hide those patterns from me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Depends on how you train it. Have they tried to knock you out?

If you train to slip a punch then your natural response will eventually be to slip the punch. If you don't train to slip a punch then your natural reaction won't be to slip a punch.

When a person isn't fighting for their life or fighting against someone who is trying to take their head off. Then that person should be training responses to known thing. The more you train and repeat solutions, the more it becomes natural and it will eventually be the only response that you know and you will forget how you used to respond before you trained.

If you don't train your solutions with repetition, then they won't be there in an instant. If you know an attack (of any type) then you can train a natural response to that attack either to evade or counter. You may decide to do one solution over the other or you may do both. This way when you are in the heat of a fight you don't have to think about what needs to be done. Your body will move on it's own as if you never had to think about it.

If you train in this way then it doesn't matter if someone is trying to knock you out. Your response will be the same unless you are scared of getting hit, which is something totally different. You can still get dazed by someone who isn't trying to knock your head off. You can still get knocked out by someone who isn't trying to knock your head off. Here's proof of that.

You'll see some of these guys not hitting their hardest still knocking people out. So this assumption that you aren't at significant risk unless you are trying to "knock someone's head off" is something I don't buy into. I've sparred with too many people who knew how to drive their power to know that I still have to be careful

 

[Acronym]

As has been pointed out to you before, there's far more variation in MA than you're aware of.

I wrote "most".

 

[JowGaWolf]

On the other hand, if you rely only on footwork and blocks/parries to protect your head, then you will likely get hit with some punches that you might have avoided with head movement.

This is true, nothing is going to be without a "payment of risk" and the type of footwork that one should use is the one that helps them to safely set up the next technique. The weaving that boxers do would make it difficult to flow into a kick, but it definitely flows into punches.

Kung fu and other TMA's factor in other attacks and try to pick a middle ground, where it's not the best but it allows them to do the most things (which isn't always a benefit to be ok at more vs great in a few).

The professional MMA fighters who choose to include head movement in their repertoire are very aware of the dangers and the downsides of that tactic.

I'm going to say some do and there are those who don't. lol

There are others, just didn't feel like search those guys lol.

I couldn't resist.

 

[Acronym]

And wrestlers duck into knees. They make mistakes all the time. It's called being human.

I'm sure you're perfect though.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This is true, nothing is going to be without a "payment of risk" and the type of footwork that one should use is the one that helps them to safely set up the next technique. The weaving that boxers do would make it difficult to flow into a kick, but it definitely flows into punches.

Kung fu and other TMA's factor in other attacks and try to pick a middle ground, where it's not the best but it allows them to do the most things (which isn't always a benefit to be ok at more vs great in a few).


I'm going to say some do and there are those who don't. lol

There are others, just didn't feel like search those guys lol.

I couldn't resist.

Rhonda's striking would have been better if she did have head movement. Unfortunately she had a coach who was blowing smoke up her *** about how good her boxing was. (This is the same coach who wouldn't lift a finger to help her in the gym until she became a big star and he saw a meal ticket.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here's a clip with some better examples of good head movement in MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's a strategic battle over pattern recognition. Can I recognize your patterns (both patterns of techniques, and the pattern of movement that leads to a specific technique) and can you hide those patterns from me.

I actually trained pattern recognition in the sparring class. I so trained what I refer to as "Pattern Programing" which is where I want you to recognize my pattern, so I can change it up on you. So I do a pattern so that you'll learn it and then I change it up on you because I know you are expecting the pattern but you get something else. So I'll program you to recognize my pattern and then exploit that when you learn it.