Hankumdo

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't see any threads on this art, so I thought I 'd start one. Hankumdo was established by Myung Jae Nam, as memory serves, as a partner for his Hankido. I believe that like Hankido, Hankumdo forms trace Hangeul characters.

http://vimeo.com/7232495

Not sure if anyone is familiar with Grandmaster Gagne, but his site comes up in the top two or three in a google search for Hankumdo. One of my instructors met him at an IHF function and said he seemed pretty decent.

http://www.ushapki.com/pages/hankumdo.php

Comments from any Hankumdo practitioners are welcome.

Daniel

 

[RRepster]

omg, another so called "Korean sword art." Any actual Korean sword arts likely came from China or Japan anyway so get certified/ranked in one of those arts and add to school instead. This "hankumdo" or whatever he's calling it is a money making idea to keep the children as students. He even says it in black and white: "Reason 2. Recruit and maintain more students."

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

omg, another so called "Korean sword art." Any actual Korean sword arts likely came from China or Japan anyway so get certified/ranked in one of those arts and add to school instead. This "hankumdo" or whatever he's calling it is a money making idea to keep the children as students. He even says it in black and white: "Reason 2. Recruit and maintain more students."

Not looking to add it; I already hold rank in a sword art.

I am aware of the lack of connectedness of modern Korean sword arts to historical Korean sword work and am also aware that there is a heavy Japanese influence in much of it, at least what I see.

What do you know, if anything, of the art? So far as I have seen, it does not appear to be overrun with twirly-twirls or "I just saw Revenge of the Sith" material. It actually looks fairly reserved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kCgWf7X-TA&feature=related


Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

I kinda hate to say this, Daniel, but so far I haven't seen any actual sword art or system that I would consider a legitimate, or even viable system from any Korean source. And, once again, this one is included.

To take each of the examples given here one by one;

http://vimeo.com/7232495

This, frankly, was terrible. The drawing looked likely to remove fingers, the sheathing was likely to damage the scabbard, sword tip, or both, if not simply miss entirely and skewer the user's hand, the cutting was incredibly bad (with the right hand doing everything, and the left hand essentially "dead", which meant it had no support to allow cutting, far less power than what is possible, a "pulled" angle on the sword making an off-line cut, and more), incredibly odd use of arms in postures (the right arm almost locked, the left very bent, again a hallmark of the poor cutting mechanics) and much more.

If I was judging purely on this example, I'd say it's someone with a few weeks experience of a Japanese system, and they didn't stick around even long enough to learn a semi-decent grip. If someone like this came into my school, they would quickly be informed that they had no idea of swordsmanship, and would be taken straight back to the very beginning immediately... and they may find that everything they thought they knew was based on nothing.

Okay, it must be said that the Korean arts have always been very good at their demo's , and this is again no exception. Very clean, and significantly better than the previous clip... however, still a lot of overcutting, a fair amount of, shall we say, combatively illogical movements (to put it gently), some rather dangerous habits involving the drawing and sheathing of the swords... and did I see a blatant rip off of a Katori Shinto Ryu kata? Methinks I did.... (Gyakunuki no Tachi, Tachiai Battojutsu, for those wondering... but not that well done, sadly).

http://www.ushapki.com/pages/hankumdo.php

Some okay stuff, but sadly most of it was not very impressive at all. The first clip (the cutting of the bamboo) was terrible. The first cut was over done and muscled, the second cut was off-line and ineffective, and the third was the first all over again. As for the rest of the clips, "cutting" paper the way it's being done isn't really anything at all, the kids sparring was kids having fun, and the cutting methods in the kids learning were again deeply flawed.

What do you know, if anything, of the art? So far as I have seen, it does not appear to be overrun with twirly-twirls or "I just saw Revenge of the Sith" material. It actually looks fairly reserved.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kCgWf7X-TA&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kCgWf7X-TA&feature=related[/URL]

Agreed that this is fairly reserved compared to most of the others of it's ilk, however it's not swordsmanship. This clip shows again many of the issues I saw in the first clip, unfortunately

And, as for not seeing "I just saw Revenge Of The Sith" material, from the third link you provided (last clip):

[yt]32mUM_1B53c[/yt]

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I missed that last one. Even that is conservative compared to some of what I have seen. The sheathing issues seemed pretty pervasive. As for the last video and the others from, http://www.ushapki.com/pages/hankumdo.php, I saw a lot of things that I tell my students not to do. When I post these threads, I am always hoping to get the perspective of people who actually practice the art in order to find out if there is some purported reason for the practices, even if I don't agree with its viability. Thus far, there are no takers.

Personally, I was underwhelemed by what I have seen. I'm just hoping to start some conversation in this section. It seems that aside from myself, there are no Korean sword practitioners participating in this forum.

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

Sadly, my friend, that may be due to the way such systems are propulgated. The way it seems to me is that each Korean sword system seems to be either taken from a few sources (Japanese and Chinese), or simply made up based on the foundation of the unarmed system itself. As a result, there are as many variations, with as much or little in common as each other, however they seem to all fail as sword systems due to the incompatible sources they borrow from. As I said, I have yet to come across any genuine Korean sword system, the best are basically just a Korean take on a Japanese or Chinese system (not both!).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I suspect that if you were learning the use of a two handed sword with a curve in sixteenth century Korea, the techniques would likely be similar to what was being done in Japan with the same class of weapon. Not because one borrowed from the other, but because there are techniques that work with each class of weapon regardless of regional origin.

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, agreed. However there would also be some pretty noticeable differences, mainly due to cultural differences. And the use of Chinese methods (designed for straight, double edged weapons) just further confuses the issue. I will be frank, though, and say that I'm not convinced of anything genuinely Korean having survived, sadly.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yep, agreed. However there would also be some pretty noticeable differences, mainly due to cultural differences. And the use of Chinese methods (designed for straight, double edged weapons) just further confuses the issue.

Not following you; if you were learning a single handed straight double edged weapon in Korea in the 16th century, the techniques would likely resemble those of similar weapons in other parts of the world but would differ from those used for a two handed curved saber.

I will be frank, though, and say that I'm not convinced of anything genuinely Korean having survived, sadly.

I often wonder if a reconstruction of some sort could reliably be done from the Muyedobotongji. Certainly a specific style could not be reconstructed, but the general technical base of Korean sword work perhaps?

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

I'll see if I can make myself a little clearer, then.

When I watch the clips above, taking particular note of the "less flashy" material, I can see definate "Korean" movements and a definate "Korean" feel to it. That has nothing to do with the weapon being used, and everything to do with the cultural surroundings to it. So while there will definately be similarities, there will also just as definately be differences (in body mechanics, postural preferences, power generation, and so on). For example, Japanese systems have a definate movement to them, based on the social and cultural norms of Japanese society. These have been dictated by social politeness and manners, common pastimes and employment, the way war and conflict has evolved, political structure (who was able to become a "warrior", and how that was decided etc), and more. Think Madagascar, or Isle of Galapogas, same creatures, but different in very noticable ways.

In terms of restoration, I think that'd be the only way left, and it'd depend on the leftover records, and how complete they are. It's been done in the Western systems, so it's not unfeasible.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'll see if I can make myself a little clearer, then.

When I watch the clips above, taking particular note of the "less flashy" material, I can see definate "Korean" movements and a definate "Korean" feel to it. That has nothing to do with the weapon being used, and everything to do with the cultural surroundings to it. So while there will definately be similarities, there will also just as definately be differences (in body mechanics, postural preferences, power generation, and so on). For example, Japanese systems have a definate movement to them, based on the social and cultural norms of Japanese society. These have been dictated by social politeness and manners, common pastimes and employment, the way war and conflict has evolved, political structure (who was able to become a "warrior", and how that was decided etc), and more. Think Madagascar, or Isle of Galapogas, same creatures, but different in very noticable ways.

Ah. I see where you are coming from now.

In terms of restoration, I think that'd be the only way left, and it'd depend on the leftover records, and how complete they are. It's been done in the Western systems, so it's not unfeasible.

The thing is that it doesn't seem that anyone is actually attempting that, though from some of the descriptions I've seen on websites for modern KSA, without looking at it, you'd think that they did.

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

If I'm being cynical, I may suggest that it's easier to just make stuff up..... but I'm never cynical, am I?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If I'm being cynical, I may suggest that it's easier to just make stuff up..... but I'm never cynical, am I?

In a weird sort of way, they're probably equally challenging for different reasons.

The hard part of reconstruction is the research and sifting through work that has been done by others.

The hard part of starting fresh is to put together a worthwhile system that has functionality and is at the same time 'not' any of the arts that influenced it.

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, but the trick is in the second half of your comment there; "a worthwhile system that has functionality", that is the big thing missing from these systems. They are little other than, as someone I train in a Koryu Kenjutsu system with says, "dancing with swords".

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ah, but the trick is in the second half of your comment there; "a worthwhile system that has functionality", that is the big thing missing from these systems. They are little other than, as someone I train in a Koryu Kenjutsu system with says, "dancing with swords".

But they already have that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BumtnHdtLU4&feature=related

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, now that I can appreciate. They're not claiming it as swordsmanship, just what it is, so that's all cool. It's when systems with less credible claims to combatively viable, or even combatively logical usage call themselves sword systems that I take issue.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Given that people are not actually using the sword for combative purposes anymore, how realitic they characterize it is less of an issue for me; most KSA students are in the art for lifestyle and fitness reasons or for something cool to do at demos, there isn't a real world danger of them using inapplicable sword work to defend themselves.

My major issue is when they start making up history and attributing modern inventions to ancient ancient social castes or inventing social castes entirely.

Myung Jae Nam's Hankumdo has no pretentions )to my knowledge) of being ancient. He designed it in the nineties in order to make a "truly Korean" sword art for IHF hapkidoin and hankidoin to practice. The paterns are based on the Hangeul alphabet.

The fact that his made in the 1990's sword art may not be viable in the 1590's is less problematic in my opinion than another organization's invention of the Samurang, a social caste that nobody can verfy and from which they claim that the very meticulously documented Samurai sprung from, a claim that is counter to what historians and historical evidence say about the Samurai.

Inventing history just plain bugs me. So far as I have seen, the Hankumdo folks seem to be honest about the origin of their art.

Daniel

 

[Namii]

It sure would be nice if a Hankumdo practitioner would be here to clear this stuff up.
The youtube demo clip= is it me or do their cuts look "short"? Like "chopping wood" short, not "cutting with a sword"
the testing? youtube clip= I really would like to find out what the whole "spinning your sword while running backwards" thing is about. And I agree the re-sheathing is....um....yea...I'll leave it at that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The only major dislikes that I have are

1. That the forms seem to be done in some kind of David Caradine Kung Fu speed zone, where every movement is slowed down. It almost looks as if they're sweeping the air.

2. The sword is cocked way over the back in much of what I have seen.

3. The sheathing.

I had a lengthy conversation over the weekend with a hapkido instructor who told me that she'd been told to sheath the sword by pinching the "blood groove" in order to make sure that the blade wasn't put away bloody. I told her that the fuller is for weight reduction and ballance and that her fingers are not going to clean the blood well enough to make any difference. I also told her that it looked like a safety issue and that either way, it was not correct. Her instructor was a 9th dan in the same federation. No idea what his hapkido is like, though I suspect that its marvelous; hers is excellent. But I would not learn sword work from him.

Daniel

 

[Namii]

"Pinching the blood groove to make sure it wasnt put away bloody"
Thats a new one. I would have had to hold back laughter. How does she put away a non grooved blade? Would she pinch it too?
Just in class the other night, we were discussing something and the groove came up. One of the kids Had to call it a blood groove. *shaking head*
I cringed every time they slammed the sword into the scabbard in those videos.