Guns Guns Guns

[Grenadier]

carry around, the chance of you coming into contact with an attacker is highly reduced,

You are comparing unlawful carry to lawful carry. This comparison is simply invalid.

look at Canada, Japan, the UK as some examples. More guns, means more criminals with guns.

On the other hand, look at Jamaica. No firearms ownership is allowed by the law-abiding, yet they are always amongst the world's highest violent crime rates.

Look within the USA. Washington DC and Chicago forbid handgun ownership, yet they are amongst the highest rates of violent crime in this nation. At the same time, the city of Kennesaw, Georgia, requires firearms ownership in each household, and their crime rate is exceptionally low.

It's not a firearms issue, and especially not amongst the law-abiding. It's always going to be a cultural issue.

 

[Inferno]

You are lucky this isn't a gun board, the wrath of God would be descending right about now.

I will say, that just because we carry, we don't also learn all the skills you already mentioned.

I agree, and like I said I'm just surprised is all. I also understand when I read that martial arts is meant to be a backup and a real weapon is the main defense/offense.

Be careful about assumptions. Not everyone that is not ignorant about guns is an armed American.

There are many other factors that go in to crime statistics as well. Colder cities tend to have less crime than warmer cities. Cities with greater ethnic diversity often have more crime than cities with less ethnic diversity. Areas where the populace is more educated and has higher socioeconomic strata enjoy less crime than areas where the populace is less educated and is of lower socioeconomic strata. That gets in to a lot of very touchy issues that are over and beyond the use of guns.

I do understand and agree with this as well. I'm not trying to assume anything. Guns are tools, but their specialized tools, they are made for harming others and animals whether in a defensive or offensive (and eventually became a sport as well). By making those tools more readily available, it's going to have people on both end, the defensive and the offensive.

I'd also like to thank everyone who has replied. I'm also very grateful this hasn't blown into a flame war that it would be if it was on another board (like a gun board as stated above), users here show a great deal of intelligence and possibly restraint.

In retrospect, I probably should have refrained from posting such a topic, I realize the right to bare arms is a big one in America and the possibility of a newbie being flamed into oblivion was a bit risky.

 

[Carol]

Nothing wrong with posting the topic at all! You have a right to your opinion like everyone else.

There are certainly folks that disagree with you, but I don't think you are being flamed. There are challenges to your posts but no one is calling you names or making a personal attack.

 

[Blindside]

In retrospect, I probably should have refrained from posting such a topic, I realize the right to bare arms is a big one in America and the possibility of a newbie being flamed into oblivion was a bit risky.

You didn't come across as a troll, this board is a pretty safe one, so feel free to ask questions. Lord knows I've said some stupid things in the past, and the board was fairly forgiving. (and what you asked wasn't stupid, and you did it politely.)

Lamont

 

[Lisa]

Thank you very much. I think I am just weirded out because outrunning a psycho in a car trying to run me over is more likely than coming across someone with a gun, legal or otherwise. I'd almost bet that I have a better chance of a helicopter or hot air balloon landing and having criminals jump out at me. This must just be a Canadian thing and like I said I mean no disrespect, I personally just don't understand.

I think that hand-to-hand and knife disarms are the most likely event in my surroundings and the whole armed citizenry is an American thing.

I have to disagree with it being a Canadian thing. There are many Canadians that believe our gun laws are wrong and are working towards changes that fight "crimes with guns" and not "gun control" and I happen to be one of them.

You live in Regina don't you?... which I happen to know has the highest murder rate per capita next to Winnipeg. (We usually switch back and forth, your city takes it one year, mine the next ) I too, feel safe in my city and I am not sure how many of those are gun related, I will have to do more research.

More guns, means more criminals with guns.

Now, I am not trying to start anything, but this is what I hear the politians in Canada say who believe "gun control" not proper legislation is the way to deal with our problems.

On that note, I remember reading and article where the journalist was talking with a motorcycle gang member who were lobbying for tougher gun legislation in Canada. Their attitude was "hey, take them out of the hands of law abiding citizens just makes it easier for me." That was a sobering thought.

 

[shesulsa]

Guns aren't an option for me or anyone but LE and the very rare criminal in my country. Running shoes,a cool head, some skills (both verbal and defensive) will keep the majority of the public safe in my opinion.

There are some other Canadians on this board who may disagree with you on some of that. As to Running shoes, a cool head and some skills keeping the majority of the public safe, you've forgotten some other very important elements - awareness, prevention education are two of the most important and used with Good Choices, you have a really good chance of avoiding most crime. And honestly, you're probably right when it comes to avoidance. But I've lived my life trying to avoid this kind of conflict and have been on the wrong side of violence five times ... four of them from people I knew ... the fifth was on the wrong side of a gun.

I don't get me wrong either, I like marksmanship both with firearms and archery but the thought of knowing that Americans believe guns are the answer to being safe sort of scares me. If people didn't have guns to carry around, the chance of you coming into contact with an attacker is highly reduced, look at Canada, Japan, the UK as some examples.

Those are easy things to say. Guns aren't THE ANSWER ... there is no panacea for violence - there always has been and always will be violence; the only answer to it is Armageddon if that's really gonna happen. I suppose you need to walk a mile or two in our moccassins in downtown L.A., Watts, the barrios in Chicago and much of New York. Sometimes just reaching for your holster is enough to thwart an attack - just ask Paul Janulis on this board.

More guns, means more criminals with guns.

Maybe ... but there are already a lot of criminals out there with illegal guns. If more responsible citizens are armed then it makes things a little more fair. But that's still not enough - there are other things we must do as a society to keep things safer and that takes being in the public eye, taking risks and holding ground - something most people don't wanna do.

I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade, I just think arming yourself might be adding to the problem as opposed to fixing the problem. But on the flip side, I can understand that one can feel protected with guns, if I had a handgun I'd feel empowered and less scared, it's a huge physiological boost in morale.

Hm. I don't know about that. I *personally* think that anyone who feels empowered just because they own a gun doesn't really understand what it means that they have brought this weapon into their home. It is a huge responsibility, not to be scoffed at nor taken advantage of. It also means caring for family relations healthily and carefully. It means being responsible for one's anger, frustration, jealousy without taking that gun into one's hands.

I feel like I've opened a can of worms, but I guess I asked for it bringing up the 2nd Amendment with armed Americans .

For Americans specifically, totalitarianism was so hated and so feared, people took enormous risks to leave their secure homes and come here to start fresh. Many, many died on the trip and many more died because they failed. Our founding fathers knew that all forms of government are subject to failure, to corruption and wrote in a protection for the people of the land that should be need to overthrow our government we would have the tools with which to do so. It is old but important.

I hope I'm not coming across as too argumentative here, just trying to point out some things.

 

[Inferno]

You live in Regina don't you?... which I happen to know has the highest murder rate per capita next to Winnipeg. (We usually switch back and forth, your city takes it one year, mine the next ) I too, feel safe in my city and I am not sure how many of those are gun related, I will have to do more research.

It is the murder capital, and usually the only murders committed are intimate ones, where a wife kills her abusive husband and the junk like that. I pass through the "most dangerous park in the city" everyday between 9pm and 3:30am, and I've never had a problem at all, and I'm not a big guy (I'm a pale Caucasian computer geek). As for guns, I know a lot of the gangs (Unfortunately primarily being Indigenous people) have them and flash them a lot and recently I've heard of rising gun related gang activity going on which is quite scary.

Now, I am not trying to start anything, but this is what I hear the politians in Canada say who believe "gun control" not proper legislation is the way to deal with our problems.

On that note, I remember reading and article where the journalist was talking with a motorcycle gang member who were lobbying for tougher gun legislation in Canada. Their attitude was "hey, take them out of the hands of law abiding citizens just makes it easier for me." That was a sobering thought.

I don't believe in gun control personally, it's a waste of money. I also don't have a problem with people owning guns, I'd like to have a handgun and a scoped rifle, for home protection but in extreme cases such as looting etc. (Recently a friends house burnt down, and when they put the fire out, people started looting, which is just unreal. I expect that from a weird comedy sketch not reality).

It's a very weird issue that I can stand on both sides of the fence on. Sort of like the legalization of Marijuana (which is a whole new thread altogether). I just wanted to know the general feel of how board users stand on it since this is a crowd that I look up to for guidance as the combined experience on this board is overwhelming.

 

[bigkicks]

inferno



most people who" pack heat" are not scared nor do the live in a constant state of fear. They are just well prepared for any scernio. You will find that most of us that carry also carry knifes, and flashlights. Prepared!! this is a crazzy world and at any moment things can run a muk. If the fight is fair, we play fair but if weapons are drawn its always nice to know you have your sidearm with you. Better to have and not need it, than need it and not have it. Martial arts is agreat for the mind, body and sprit. However, we are living in the 2007 era, were human live is not vauled by criminals nor, do our advesaries live by any code of honor. like the great masters did ions ago when martial arts and the sword were the common in the field of battle.

Why should we be victims.

welcome !!

 

[Carol]

I just wanted to know the general feel of how board users stand on it since this is a crowd that I look up to for guidance as the combined experience on this board is overwhelming.

The opinions vary widely. We have a few people here that are anti-gun as well. One thing is for sure...those of us that shoot, if we didn't feel MA training was important, we wouldn't be spending any time here talking about it and getting to know other folks that train.

 

[Inferno]

There are some other Canadians on this board who may disagree with you on some of that. As to Running shoes, a cool head and some skills keeping the majority of the public safe, you've forgotten some other very important elements - awareness, prevention education are two of the most important and used with Good Choices, you have a really good chance of avoiding most crime. And honestly, you're probably right when it comes to avoidance. But I've lived my life trying to avoid this kind of conflict and have been on the wrong side of violence five times ... four of them from people I knew ... the fifth was on the wrong side of a gun.

Agreed. I did miss those qualities, not that I feel they aren't needed but I suppose I didn't put enough thought into the post. As for violence, there really is none, there is some drama once in awhile when two people get in a fight and then they bring 12 people to "back them up" and the other does as well leading to an arms race that turns into absolutely nothing to begin with. Very childish, but preferable to a full scale riot or something.

Those are easy things to say. Guns aren't THE ANSWER ... there is no panacea for violence - there always has been and always will be violence; the only answer to it is Armageddon if that's really gonna happen. I suppose you need to walk a mile or two in our moccassins in downtown L.A., Watts, the barrios in Chicago and much of New York. Sometimes just reaching for your holster is enough to thwart an attack - just ask Paul Janulis on this board.

Maybe ... but there are already a lot of criminals out there with illegal guns. If more responsible citizens are armed then it makes things a little more fair. But that's still not enough - there are other things we must do as a society to keep things safer and that takes being in the public eye, taking risks and holding ground - something most people don't wanna do.

I think the difference in opinions comes from the fact that we both live in very different social circumstances.

Hm. I don't know about that. I *personally* think that anyone who feels empowered just because they own a gun doesn't really understand what it means that they have brought this weapon into their home. It is a huge responsibility, not to be scoffed at nor taken advantage of. It also means caring for family relations healthily and carefully. It means being responsible for one's anger, frustration, jealousy without taking that gun into one's hands.

I have to disagree, I think everyone at least at first feels a little empowered by owning a gun. I realize and agree that it does or at least SHOULD be a lot of responsibility ESPECIALLY if you have children etc, but with such a power weapon that can literally take life by a movement of a finger, it's hard to believe one wouldn't feel empowered. Take this with a grain of salt though as I don't own a gun, but have fired many .

For Americans specifically, totalitarianism was so hated and so feared, people took enormous risks to leave their secure homes and come here to start fresh. Many, many died on the trip and many more died because they failed. Our founding fathers knew that all forms of government are subject to failure, to corruption and wrote in a protection for the people of the land that should be need to overthrow our government we would have the tools with which to do so. It is old but important.

Which is a great idea, unfortunately I feel that the American people are letting a lot happen that they shouldn't. The founding fathers gave the means, but there has to be a will in order for change, people would have to be willing to die, and as long as people have their conveniences and aren't starving there won't be any revolution on a grand scale. So as long as the bread and circuses continue, I don't expect much to happen, which is unfortunate but thats a very dangerous and off-topic discussion.

I hope I'm not coming across as too argumentative here, just trying to point out some things.

Not at all, I appreciate the feedback, it helps me work things out myself, I try to keep an open mind so my opinions can grow and evolve as opposed to some who have their opinions set in stone and do nothing but try to drive it into other people's skulls.

The opinions vary widely. We have a few people here that are anti-gun as well. One thing is for sure...those of us that shoot, if we didn't feel MA training was important, we wouldn't be spending any time here talking about it and getting to know other folks that train.

That they do, we're all [SIZE=-1]different and thats what makes life interesting.[/SIZE]

This thread has really made me mull it all over and I think I can understand why you individuals would choose to have guns on your person even if it seems strange in my circumstance. I thank you all for giving me this better understanding. I think this thread has done it's purpose at lest for me. Thanks again.

 

[AzQkr]

Cirdan,

Don't believe everything you read out of Harvard [ that link you provided ]. It's a cesspool of liberalism at it's finest.

I live in a state where open carry is not only accepted but the population is quite accustomed to seeing armed citizens with guns on their belts in holsters.

Some of those who move here for the winter from other more "liberal" states have tried and continue to try to take that right away from us, and it may happen one day in the future, but for now, we exercise the rights we were granted by the founders of this country where firearm ownership and carry them is concerned.

It's the free state of Arizona, moved here from one of the most liberalized repressive states in the country called Massachusetts a few years ago. Could not be happier to be here and enjoying and experiencing those freedoms while they last.

Brownie

 

[hongkongfooey]

In retrospect, I probably should have refrained from posting such a topic, I realize the right to bare arms is a big one in America and the possibility of a newbie being flamed into oblivion was a bit risky.

While some people like to wear sleeveless shirts, I prefer not to. But, if you are referring to the right to bear arms, then yes I am all for it. The police are not obligated, nor should they be expected to protect individuals from harm. That responsibility belongs to you and you alone.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Cirdan,

Don't believe everything you read out of Harvard [ that link you provided ]. It's a cesspool of liberalism at it's finest.

I live in a state where open carry is not only accepted but the population is quite accustomed to seeing armed citizens with guns on their belts in holsters.

Some of those who move here for the winter from other more "liberal" states have tried and continue to try to take that right away from us, and it may happen one day in the future, but for now, we exercise the rights we were granted by the founders of this country where firearm ownership and carry them is concerned.

It's the free state of Arizona, moved here from one of the most liberalized repressive states in the country called Massachusetts a few years ago. Could not be happier to be here and enjoying and experiencing those freedoms while they last.

Brownie

Yup, The states and cities that have liberal politicians in charge have out of control murder and crime rates. It's kind of sad that many of the 13 colonies have repressive gun control laws.

 

[pstarr]

Yep! The year that it became illegal to even possess a firearm in Washington, DC, that place had the highest homicide rate in the nation...

 

[tellner]

Guns didn't use to be a liberal/conservative thing in this country. It became a wedge issue over the years for a variety of political and historical reasons that are well beyond the scope of this forum.

There are certainly some people who carry - I've never heard of anyone who does so refer to it as "packing heat" - who are overly cautious to mildly paranoid. You find the same sorts in the dojo. But for the overwhelming majority, no. Again, before I did myself I thought so. It seemed obvious. After having a CCW for a while and meeting a lot of other people who did it became obvious that that was incorrect.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

After much thought and consideration of all that has been said on this subject in this thread my only response is "What they said". Thank you.

Same here. Great responses.

 

[Dave Leverich]

It's been a real pleasure to see what very likely would have been a shouting match... held to a dull roar, and respectful.

My own background:
I could field strip a Berretta blindfolded at 10. Back together with a clip and one in the pipe, in about 25 seconds. I'm only somewhat guestimating on time, as I can picture all of the parts in my head, and I haven't stripped a Berretta in 15 years.

At 12 I knew that a 380 would fit in a 9mm, but not the other way around.
I knew the value of a stagger grip, hollow points, hydroshocks...

You can see how I grew up. I could blow a nickle off the hind of a bullfrog at 300 yards etc etc.

That being said. I own one gun, a plinking .22 old revolver.

It's not that I don't love guns, I think they are great, I love and respect them. There's nothing like watching a jug explode at 100 yards through a 20 power Nikon as the blowback ports on the 300 Win mag stop it from making my shoulder part of my back. Even the smell of a spent shell of the right caliber is great heh.

I just don't need to have one on my person, where I live. That might change, I have absolutely nothing against carrying a weapon if it's warranted. I've carried when I lived in Phoenix, I can't side kick someone who's throwing slugs, luckily I never had to. But, in one summer there... we had 2 'snipers' hole up and start picking off pedestrians, innumerable bank robberies, hold-ups, drive-bys... EVERY night there were police helecopters overhead with infrared going looking for someone.

Yes, in Phoenix, I carried. Here I don't. If I go camping in deep woods, sure thing. To me it's simply an awareness of surroundings.

 

[Cirdan]

Cirdan,

Don't believe everything you read out of Harvard [ that link you provided ]. It's a cesspool of liberalism at it's finest.

I merely found it to be interesting, I don`t neccecarily agree with all of it. However I think it i quite obvious that the US has a gun problem. The number of firearm related deaths you have every year over there is staggering. It would appear not all members of society who are allowed to posess guns are as responsible as the members of this forum. Having instructed a fain number of persons how to handle arms myself I find that most need a harsh lesson in respecting the weapon.

 

[Carol]

I merely found it to be interesting, I don`t neccecarily agree with all of it. However I think it i quite obvious that the US has a gun problem. The number of firearm related deaths you have every year over there is staggering. It would appear not all members of society who are allowed to posess guns are as responsible as the members of this forum. Having instructed a fain number of persons how to handle arms myself I find that most need a harsh lesson in respecting the weapon.

The U.S. has more of a crime problem than a gun problem, for many reasons. A lot of gun violence stems from illicit usage. There are some irresponsible firearms users and I don't support irresponsible behaviour at all...however, I also think the stories get a bit sensationalized in the press. Unfortunately, responsible firearm use (including no use at all) doesn't sell news.

 

[tellner]

Back when I did more research on this kind of thing I found that the "typical" American murder (better than half fell into that category) were either people with felony records killing other people with felony records or domestic violence in which the police had been called at least once in the last year. What can you do?