Jeff Boler
Blue Belt
Probably going to get ugly. Opinions?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.execution/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.execution/index.html
Governor denies clemency for ex-gang leader
- Thread starter Jeff Boler
- Start date
I would like to see people encouraged to improve themselves while in prison, but...I have to agree with the Governor's speechwriter that failing to admit guilt and apologize for his crime is a significant disincentive to sparing him.
Part of the problem is the drawn-out appeals process. This is for a murder he committed in 1981...of course he's a different person now. Who wouldn't be? How could you not be after 24 years? In a sense, the wrong man is being punished because of this...yet, had he gotten life imprisonment initially, he'd still be a different person now, and still in prison.
I'll shed no tears for him, but I do hope that it isn't discouraging to other inmates who are trying to make more of themselves.
Part of the problem is the drawn-out appeals process. This is for a murder he committed in 1981...of course he's a different person now. Who wouldn't be? How could you not be after 24 years? In a sense, the wrong man is being punished because of this...yet, had he gotten life imprisonment initially, he'd still be a different person now, and still in prison.
I'll shed no tears for him, but I do hope that it isn't discouraging to other inmates who are trying to make more of themselves.
michaeledward
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The state should not take the life of a convicted criminal if there are less severe, but equally remedial options available.
michaeledward said:
Michael,
What would you consider "less severe, but equally remedial options?"... Life imprisonment?
sgtmac_46
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I think the question is less, whether 'Tookie' deserves clemency, but more, what is the criteria that Hollywood and others use in picking their "Heroes" these days. The hero worship of vicious criminals is a disturbing development. It doesn't take very long looking at the list of the stated heros of Hollywood celebrities to become concerned....Fidel Castro, Tookie Williams, Che Guevara, Mumia Abu-Jamal, heck, give them a few more months, and they'll probably jump on the Saddam Hussein as martyr bandwagon.
"You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him!"
Stanley "Tookie" Williams nominated for 5 nobel peace prizes and awarded a nobel prize for literature
"You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him!"
Stanley "Tookie" Williams nominated for 5 nobel peace prizes and awarded a nobel prize for literature
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sgtmac_46 said:
Indeed it is disturbing. Also, the Nobel "Peace Prize" lost all meaning when Yassir Arafat, a man responsible for the murder of innocent civilians, including Americans, was awarded it (I'm not anti-Palestinian, only anti-PLO).
Regarding clemency, either we have the death penalty or we do not. IMO, the issue of Clemency for an individual is separate from the debate over the death penalty. I was a bit concerned that the witnesses in the case had strong reason to implicate him; however, the murder weapons was William's and he did not co-found one of the U.S.'s most violent gangs for nothing. I would have to have seen more of the evidence to have a strong opinion either way, but his writing children's books does not sway me in the slightest - he helped start a chain of events that has literally led to hundreds or even thousands of deaths.
How could they grant clemency for a man who was known to violently rape fellow inmates while writing all those "peaceful books?" And if I'm not mistaken he killed a couple of inmates as well? How many guards has he injured and rebelled against? He was reformed? Like Mike Tyson this man is an animal. An educated animal to be sure but deep down inside a savage brute who probably doesnt care for the life standing next to him. Created a blood-thirsty gang and is awarded a Peace Prize.
But now he speaks out begging for mercy. Well of course anyone who fears for their lives (and even some who fear for their souls) will do almost anything to survive...to live.
No, I think the Gov. made the right decision.
Perhaps it will spark riots, perhaps not. If it does then it says volumes about his "peaceful influence." If it does not (spark riots) then it may say volumes about his present influence.
But now he speaks out begging for mercy. Well of course anyone who fears for their lives (and even some who fear for their souls) will do almost anything to survive...to live.
No, I think the Gov. made the right decision.
Perhaps it will spark riots, perhaps not. If it does then it says volumes about his "peaceful influence." If it does not (spark riots) then it may say volumes about his present influence.
Indeed.Satt said:
sgtmac_46
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What's more, redemption is about more than just being granted mercy. Others don't redeem you, you redeem yourself.MA-Caver said:
If he is truly redeemed, that's enough. No one can grant him redemption. Just because you are redeemed, doesn't obsolve you of responsibility.
It just means you've changed who you are, from the person who committed that terrible act. He can go out of this life a better man, leave a legacy. Lets see how he meets the righteous and just punishment that he has earned. That may say a lot about his redemption.
Also, why would someone get a Nobel peace prize for allegedly trying to end gang violence....THAT HE MOSTLY STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE?!
Isn't that like paying someone to fix your car, after THEY wrecked it? Or, giving them a reward for returning money they stole in the first place?
sgtmac_46
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I saw this little tid-bit on race, the death penalty and Tookie.
"At the end of 2004, the Justice Department had 1,390 Blacks on death row (compared to 1,851 Whites). While sixteen of the inmates are black women, black males are six (6%) percent of the nation's population but are 42% of the nation's death row inmates. White males are 34% of the nation's population, and 53% of the death row population. "
http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1514
The insinuation is that the justice system is racist. Why else would black males consist of 6% of the population and 42% of death row inmates? Is this true? Well, only if you take those numbers out of context.
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, Black males committed 52.1% of the homicides. Yet, they are 42% of the death row population. White males committed 45.9% of the murder rate, yet represent 53% of the death row population. That would suggest that black males are actually UNDERrepresented, per murder, on death row. While, white males are OVERrepresented.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
Does this mean that the justice system is prejudiced against white men? Not likely. What it likely means is that white males commit most murders in white communities. Black males likewise in black communities.
White communities, predominantly, are more inclined to cooperate with the police, and hence, white males are more likely to get caught and successfuly prosecuted.
Black communities, on the other hand, are suspicious of the police, so they aren't as incline to cooperate. Therefore, black males are more likely to escape punishment on a per-murder basis. Therefore, the most violent black criminals are likely to be free to commit crimes far longer than their white counter-parts.
But the allegation that black males are 'overrepresented' on death row is a bogus distortion and, in many cases, an outright lie. They are underrepresented for their share of the murder rate. There are some legitimate complaints about racial issues in America, this doesn't happen to be, by and large, one of them.
It is not surprising, though, with that line of racist justice being sold, why the black community believes it is being persecuted. The sad part is that it is a belief built on lies and distortions.
Sadly, this debate isn't even open as an issue increasingly in the US. You can get labelled as a 'racist' for even pointing out the obvious. That is why there can't be any honest dialogue about race relations in America, the label 'racist' has created a freezing effect. There seems to be an understanding that we are to ignore facts that are 'inconvenient' rather than try and solve the root problems.
The shameless worship of thugs and criminals, on false pretenses, doesn't help solve the problem, it compounds it. The first thing that needs to be done, is for people in these communities to stop embracing people like 'Tookie' Williams as a hero of the community, or this cycle will continue.
"You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him!"
Stanley "Tookie" Williams nominated for 5 nobel peace prizes (for starting a criminal organization and brutally murdering at least 4 people) and awarded a nobel prize for literature (for books nobodies read).
"At the end of 2004, the Justice Department had 1,390 Blacks on death row (compared to 1,851 Whites). While sixteen of the inmates are black women, black males are six (6%) percent of the nation's population but are 42% of the nation's death row inmates. White males are 34% of the nation's population, and 53% of the death row population. "
http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1514
The insinuation is that the justice system is racist. Why else would black males consist of 6% of the population and 42% of death row inmates? Is this true? Well, only if you take those numbers out of context.
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, Black males committed 52.1% of the homicides. Yet, they are 42% of the death row population. White males committed 45.9% of the murder rate, yet represent 53% of the death row population. That would suggest that black males are actually UNDERrepresented, per murder, on death row. While, white males are OVERrepresented.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
Does this mean that the justice system is prejudiced against white men? Not likely. What it likely means is that white males commit most murders in white communities. Black males likewise in black communities.
White communities, predominantly, are more inclined to cooperate with the police, and hence, white males are more likely to get caught and successfuly prosecuted.
Black communities, on the other hand, are suspicious of the police, so they aren't as incline to cooperate. Therefore, black males are more likely to escape punishment on a per-murder basis. Therefore, the most violent black criminals are likely to be free to commit crimes far longer than their white counter-parts.
But the allegation that black males are 'overrepresented' on death row is a bogus distortion and, in many cases, an outright lie. They are underrepresented for their share of the murder rate. There are some legitimate complaints about racial issues in America, this doesn't happen to be, by and large, one of them.
It is not surprising, though, with that line of racist justice being sold, why the black community believes it is being persecuted. The sad part is that it is a belief built on lies and distortions.
Sadly, this debate isn't even open as an issue increasingly in the US. You can get labelled as a 'racist' for even pointing out the obvious. That is why there can't be any honest dialogue about race relations in America, the label 'racist' has created a freezing effect. There seems to be an understanding that we are to ignore facts that are 'inconvenient' rather than try and solve the root problems.
The shameless worship of thugs and criminals, on false pretenses, doesn't help solve the problem, it compounds it. The first thing that needs to be done, is for people in these communities to stop embracing people like 'Tookie' Williams as a hero of the community, or this cycle will continue.
"You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him!"
Stanley "Tookie" Williams nominated for 5 nobel peace prizes (for starting a criminal organization and brutally murdering at least 4 people) and awarded a nobel prize for literature (for books nobodies read).
michaeledward
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Yes.Lisa said:
sgtmac_46
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How is that equally remedial? Tookie will never commit another crime again. That's a fail safe cure for recidivism. Yet, those serving life, even in Supermax facilities like Florence, Colorado, are STILL able to operate criminal organizations from behind bars.michaeledward said:
michaeledward
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sgtmac_46 said:
What is the function of incarceration?
If it is to punish the offender, then the ultimate punishment is the death penalty.
If the function of incarceration is to protect the citizenry, keeping an offender behind bars, and monitored until his natural death provides that function. It does it at less cost, and less intrusion, than the capital punishment.
It is my belief that capital punishment is about revenge.
sgtmac_46
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The function is to protect the citizenry AND punish the offender. The death penalty, from a hypothetical standpoint (though not as we practice it), does that from a perspective of FAR greater certainty than a life time of incarceration. Also, it's hypothetically cheaper (Though, again, not as we practice it.)michaeledward said:
There are many things that go wrong with lifetime incarcerations. There are those that escape, and menace the public. There are those who are eventually released, despite having been given lifetime sentences, and there are those who continue criminal enterprises within prison walls.
None of those things Tookie will ever be able to do again.
The statistics for those given lifetime incarcerations committing future crimes is FAR greater than for those who were executed.
Again, I say that capital punishment is far more pragmatic than a lifetime of incarceration...and far more humane.
Well, he was executed this morning. So I guess that's that.
I've thought a lot about this situation ever since I received an email from a friend asking me to participate in the letter writing campaign to Gov. Schwarzenegger asking for clemency for Mr. Williams. I read the letter my friend wrote, then began to research this individual.
I found clips from a film about him starring Jamie Foxx called Redemption and saw that Mr. Foxx is one of the biggest names calling for clemency. I then saw that Snoop Dogg was also fighting for clemency. Snoop Dogg is a Crip, by the way. Of course he wants Mr. Williams saved.
I decided to think about this situation not in terms of racial injustice and all that. But rather in terms of right and wrong. I asked myself how I would feel if he had killed one of my loved ones and the answer was clear. It was sort of like that line from Kill Bill:
"You and me, we got unfinished business. And not a g******, m***********g thing you've done in the subsequent four years, including getting knocked up, is gonna change that."
Writing children's books about gang violence doesn't pay for the four lives he extinguished. He may have changed. He may have made peace with his God. Good. Maybe he will be granted mercy in the sweet bye and bye. But not here.
Vic www.combatartsusa.com
I've thought a lot about this situation ever since I received an email from a friend asking me to participate in the letter writing campaign to Gov. Schwarzenegger asking for clemency for Mr. Williams. I read the letter my friend wrote, then began to research this individual.
I found clips from a film about him starring Jamie Foxx called Redemption and saw that Mr. Foxx is one of the biggest names calling for clemency. I then saw that Snoop Dogg was also fighting for clemency. Snoop Dogg is a Crip, by the way. Of course he wants Mr. Williams saved.
I decided to think about this situation not in terms of racial injustice and all that. But rather in terms of right and wrong. I asked myself how I would feel if he had killed one of my loved ones and the answer was clear. It was sort of like that line from Kill Bill:
"You and me, we got unfinished business. And not a g******, m***********g thing you've done in the subsequent four years, including getting knocked up, is gonna change that."
Writing children's books about gang violence doesn't pay for the four lives he extinguished. He may have changed. He may have made peace with his God. Good. Maybe he will be granted mercy in the sweet bye and bye. But not here.
Vic www.combatartsusa.com
He still could give orders to his gang from within the cel if he were alive. He is now facing the ultimate judgement for all he's done.
Growing up in LA and OC, I lost friends to gangs. While Tookie published anti-gang material, he never once apologized for what he did.
There are some cases where I support capital punishment and this is one of them.
Growing up in LA and OC, I lost friends to gangs. While Tookie published anti-gang material, he never once apologized for what he did.
There are some cases where I support capital punishment and this is one of them.
Yup, it's over:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/williams...kkEcP8A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Let's hope no violence follows this evening.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/williams...kkEcP8A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Let's hope no violence follows this evening.
It's about time. You couldn't get away from that stuff these last few days. I have no problem with the deaths of notorious individuals. However, now we can sit back and wait for the next wave of people committing scuicide by killing as many people as they can, and waiting thirty years for the government to get its act toguether.
Sean
Sean
