Good Online Site for Creationist Proof

[Kane]

I found a site the other day that actually explains everything atheists say that doesn't make sense about creationism (science and philosophy). As an agnostic, I viewed all the material with no bias and you should too. The main site is below;

http://www.godandscience.org/

The next section is about how the bones and such appeared in the beginning (the bones of ape-like humans). According to it, we were made from the same particles as other apes. In the Jewish Bible they use different words like a word that means “to create from”. Read the entire slideshow below if you are interested. When on the page, click on “Origin of Man and Races Title Slide” to start slide show. The page is below;

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/originman.html



The final page I want to mention about (even though you can probably find it yourself) explains actually ways to counter atheist questioning on creationism. It is below;



http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html


Most of the material had me convinced except of for one thing, A Loving God throwing people into HELL. It still doesn’t make sense to me. The analogy they use is true to a certain extent.


They said; “”“Any of you who are parents will recognize that allowing your children to do whatever they want to do is not loving at all.”””



That is true, but would a parent punish his child and put him/her into forever punishment? Would you ground or spank you kids for eternity? The analogy of hell being never ending is very unloving to me. Hell is the worst type of pain you can ever receive.



And I think hell should only be reserved for truly bad men like Hitler, Stalin, Emperor Hirohito, or Mussolini. Also murders, big time thieves, or terrorists. Even they don’t deserve being in hell FOREVER on a few years of evil done on Earth. God could send them maybe 1,000 or 100 years in hell, but why ETERNITY? I wouldn’t do that if I were a loving God. Does this mean I’m more loving than God?



I also would not throw people who don’t believe in God into hell if they were good people in there life. It is not there fault they have the doubt. Some people don’t have the same faith as other, GOD CREATED THEM THAT WAY. Maybe kill their soul and prevent them from going to heaven, but going to hell? I rather God just making us all perfect instead of after a few years on Earth go to an eternal hell. Hell like I said before is the worst type of pain you can feel. It’s a million times worse than Hitler’s concentration camps. Doesn’t it seem more like tyranny?



Everything else makes sense, but I am not completely convinced because of the whole issue about hell.

 

[AaronLucia]

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.



If we knew that Hell would be for eternity, how could we be dumb enough to choose it?

 

[rmcrobertson]

If we thought that the Great Punta sent people to burn in everlasting hellfire over trivial issues like belief, why would we be immoral enough to be on His side?

 

[Fight with attitude]

you do know science isn't always right?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

The page about why god would send people to hell is so full of fallacies and assumptions that it's arrogant for them to accuse "atheists" (meaning for them, of course, people who don't believe in our god) of making assumptions. It's all rhetoric.

A simple example is their comment about pagan religions. "Permissive gods, who are caught up in their own intrigues, and so allow humans to do whatever they want without repercussions, are found in the pagan religions." So from this, we gather that all non-christian religions center around gods that have no rules of conduct.

 

[Kane]

Other than the page about hell, I think the site can be very much accurate. Especially the way they explain about the ape-like humans in the beginning.

 

[Mark Weiser]

In Judaism Hell is not even an option. Hell was orginally a pagan concept that incorperated itself into Organized Religions to gain a hold over the Populace.

 

[AaronLucia]

What does Judaism have in the way of punishment, or does it?

 

[michaeledward]

you do know science isn't always right?

I know with certainly that science is NOT always right.

However, Science is self-correcting. When the idea was first presented that the planets orbit the sun, the theory was that it was in a circular orbit. However, continued study allowed scientists to determine that orbits are no circular, but eliptical.

When was the last time Faith/Religion/God corrected itself?

 

[Mark Weiser]

Well I will try and be brief. In Judasim the concept of "hell" if one is to use the Christian concept. Those who practice Judaism belive that one creates his or her own hell here on earth by living a life that does not honor yourself or your neighbor. Doing the best you can with what is available to you and if not available go and create if I may use that word your own life.

Honor --- a keen sense of ethical conduct. The code of conduct you live by at least for us. The Torah and Talmud.

• Honor God
• Honor your Family
• Honor your Neighbors
• Honor yourself

If you do these things you have lived a good life and will show God to those around you. Hell is not in the mindset of Judaism and is not taught

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I'm sorry, but they seem to have an agenda up the wazoo (if one can have that there).

As I've said in other places, I'm a Christian (Orthodox) and a scientist. I have no problem combining the two. As a scientist, I recognize that the theory of evolution, and the process of natural selection, are two well-worked concepts that have evidence for them. Creationism is not a science. Does that mean that I see no evidence for GOD in the creation? Not at all. But creationism is not the way.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Feisty Mouse:

Aren't creationism and orthodox christianity kind of a package deal? If not, I'm interested in hearing how they aren't, if you don't mind me asking.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Creationism is an attempt to package beliefs about the creation of the earth, and mankind, in the scientific work of today, while denying a large, well-worked amount of evidence to the contrary of certain things - for example, the age of the Earth, which most Creationist accounts I have seen and read list as far younger than the Earth actually is.

Is it a more simple hypothesis that GOD hid fossils to test our faith for some reason, or that the earth is pretty dang old by human standards? Huzzah for Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor - simplest explanation, it's the latter.

So what do I do with this? Well, first of all, although the Bible is indeed a holy book, in general (in general!) the Orthodox, and I think Catholics (someone jump in here if they'd like) do not tend to take a single line or verse of the Bible and make it the most important part. Some things are repeated over and over - those are big messages, obviously. But I have no problem with reading Genesis, and seeing a beautiful metaphor for the creation of the Earth, the "rise of Man", and the development of our self-consciousness and complex language, and thus more complex knowledge of ourselves, and of the world. It's not that I think it's not true, I think it's not literal - that the Earth was created in a week (as we know weeks).

Understanding how the Earth and the species on it (including Mankind) was created is a great mystery, and I think we were given reason (imperfect as it is) to use wisely from our Creator. When I read about evolution, the creation of the Earth, I see the hand of GOD in it.

The age of the Earth aside, there are two things I think creationists get their collective underwear in a twist about: a) man came from "lower" animals, which means we're somehow low or stupid or not as cool as we think we are, and b) they think that by putting forth evolutionary claims, you are at the same time saying, there is no Creator.

a) OK, another bias as a scientist. I think all species are really amazing miracles. This may sound trite or sappy, but they are to me. (Another reason, aside from the scientific, why I feel the great extinction period we are triggering is a crime and a sin.) Because we were created from a different ancestor - so what? We are still these AMAZING animals! Look at us, communicating in a complex symbolic language, from all over the Earth! (as an example)

b) Darwin was a pious man, and very troubled over publishing Origin of the Species for this reason: his theory, unlike all the creation theories before it, did not *rely* upon a Creator. GOD was not the main explanatory principle in how species came about - understandable mechanisms exist.

I believe that his theory and ideas are *testable* because of this - we can empiricially attempt to test these mechanisms. This does not mean I think his theory is a "proof" against a Creator. I think we are trying to understand how the world works, but that does not mean that a Creator did not make the world, and these properties or mechanisms.

It is amazing how much we have discovered in the last few hundred years, in the sciences. It is even more amazing how complicated things can be, and how much we do not know. I find it inspiring and humbling.


Now, my beliefs and ideas are not popular - either with creationists (who I see trying to kidnap the mantle of authority Science has taken on in society in the last century in particular), or with many (not all) scientists I've met (it's not chic or cool to seem to need to "depend upon" religion - scientists are often encouraged to live solely for their science). It's funny, really - people on either end are devoted to one system of thinking or another. But it makes me sad, too.

People can chose to be devout in whatever religion they practice, agnostic (most popular for scientists, I think, really), or atheist. Evolution is simply another reason for people to go one way or the other.

This was too long, and I'm too tired and loopy to be very coherent.

I almost never talk about this. This is an extremely personal issue.

Edited to add: I'm sorry, I didn't address the precise question about Orthodoxy and creationism. 1) Orthodoxy is a religious tradition and faith, while creationism is religion attempting to mimic or disguise itself as science. 2) The above stuff is not dogma, obviously, but my own beliefs. However I have heard preists talk about our several-billion-year-old Earth with joy and wonder and love. 3) There is personal variation. I think a lot of the variation is generational. 4) I can't answer for all Christian denominations, aside from not answering for Orthodoxy. I mentioned the piece-of-the-Bible idea because, in my experience, I've had Protestants (of various sects) do the "Well, what about this line here?!? Are you saying you don't believe in God?!?!?" a lot more than I've seen Orthodox or Catholics do - although i'm sure some do.

 

[Kane]

Atheists, why do you not believe in God? Say a few of the main reasons. I'm just a little curious.

 

[Darksoul]

-Hello Kane. Atheists don't believe in God for many reasons, mainly I think because they found it wasn't right for them. IMHO if you're comfortable with something, you're not likely to change it. If you're not comfortable, you change or live with it. I'm a former Methodist; I woke up one day and realized that my spiritual path had changed directions. If its meant to be, I will return to the Christian God I was raised by. But only if its the right thing to do. I also believe that many Atheists had some bad experiences with their former religions, though I cannnot speak for anybody but me. Others may possibly feel that group they were in just wasn't right, like the way they worshipped God or practice their religion wasn't in sync with them. I also sure there are some who cannot stand the intolerance practiced by some groups out there. A person should be able to decide who they want to believe in, and how. And maybe take a look at the role religion takes as being part of life. Do we do whatever to lead a good life? Or maybe make to the after life? It may simply depend on the person.

A---)

 

[SenseiBear]

Feisty Mouse:

Aren't creationism and orthodox christianity kind of a package deal? If not, I'm interested in hearing how they aren't, if you don't mind me asking.

Creationism tends to be strongest among Fundamentalists. Orthodox and Catholics tend to be more educated about their beliefs (it is my impression, not being part of any of the above groups)

Kane - you don't really sound agnostic to me - the claims of some fundamentalists is certainly not "proof"

As an agnostic, I don't believe in god. I don't, like an Atheist, believe there IS NO GOD - that seems as silly to me as many Fundamentalist beliefs... how do they know?

Sure, there could be a god. What we don't know about life and the universe dwarfs the things we know. I admit a god is possible - I just have no way of knowing which, if any, of the thousands of gods man has come up with is the real one. I don't think there is any way I can know, so I don't concern myself overly about it. I try to live life as if it the only chance I will ever have to learn, grow, try, succeed, fail, love, etc... (though I admit some gods seem sillier and less likely to me than others, but that is a personal bias)

Man may one day learn enough that we can either truly know there is a god, or know there is not one... Or we may never solve the essential mysteries of life. I'm ok with that...

Personally, I would LIKE there to be more than the few decades of existence we appear to have - but I will neither count on it nor worry about it.

SB

 

[Kane]

Creationism tends to be strongest among Fundamentalists. Orthodox and Catholics tend to be more educated about their beliefs (it is my impression, not being part of any of the above groups)

Kane - you don't really sound agnostic to me - the claims of some fundamentalists is certainly not "proof"

As an agnostic, I don't believe in god. I don't, like an Atheist, believe there IS NO GOD - that seems as silly to me as many Fundamentalist beliefs... how do they know?

Sure, there could be a god. What we don't know about life and the universe dwarfs the things we know. I admit a god is possible - I just have no way of knowing which, if any, of the thousands of gods man has come up with is the real one. I don't think there is any way I can know, so I don't concern myself overly about it. I try to live life as if it the only chance I will ever have to learn, grow, try, succeed, fail, love, etc... (though I admit some gods seem sillier and less likely to me than others, but that is a personal bias)

Man may one day learn enough that we can either truly know there is a god, or know there is not one... Or we may never solve the essential mysteries of life. I'm ok with that...

Personally, I would LIKE there to be more than the few decades of existence we appear to have - but I will neither count on it nor worry about it.

SB

Actually there is a difference between me and other agnostics. For one, I am very un-bias toward both sides. It seems many other agnostics are actually more atheists. They really deep down believe there is no God. Me, I am very 50/50 in this. Many that claim to be agnostic act much more atheists.



Why would you be okay with NOT knowing the truth? Aren't you afraid if that you will go to hell if you did go down the wrong path? Many people, even Christians can't seem to comprehend what hell exactly is.



Actually that site I gave didn't seem too much of “fundamentalist” claims. In the site it seems to me that they were trying to mix science and creationism together, which surprisingly it worked quite well. Some of the philosophy though is a little strange to me still.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm sorry, but they seem to have an agenda up the wazoo (if one can have that there).

As I've said in other places, I'm a Christian (Orthodox) and a scientist. I have no problem combining the two. As a scientist, I recognize that the theory of evolution, and the process of natural selection, are two well-worked concepts that have evidence for them. Creationism is not a science. Does that mean that I see no evidence for GOD in the creation? Not at all. But creationism is not the way.

I think the agenda of the creationists fits quite nicely with the current Right Wing ideology. If evolution is wrong and MAN (note the emphasis) really is above nature instead of part of it, we need not feel bad about disregarding the parts of Nature that are hinderances to our desires.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Good point. That fits in well with, say, Watt's view during the Reagan administration that the end of times is coming soon, so why really worry about preserving the environment for future generations?

 

[michaeledward]

Good point. That fits in well with, say, Watt's view during the Reagan administration that the end of times is coming soon, so why really worry about preserving the environment for future generations?

There is some evidence that this too was Reagan's point of view toward the end of the universe, which is why his actions toward Russia and the Soviet Union were so over the top.

Hell, who needs to worry about deficits if the Second Coming is 'imminent'.

(wow ... that sentence seems spooky today - deja vu all over again).