FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all

[Brian Johns]

Wow, this Moromoro dude has a lot of guts, eh ? I cannot believe the way he shot off his mouth about the promotion and without doing any research in the first place. But what gets me is the incredible number of posts (740 some odd posts) in two months.

Looks to me that he is spending far more time on the computer than he is training. As a matter of fact, I wonder if he has any time to train at all !!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Whoop,

My hat's off to you (revealing a rapidly balding skull) for recognizing something the rest of has missed. :rofl:

Yours,
Dan

 

[dearnis.com]

Wow...things get excitig when you go off to drink beer and catch fish for a week.
In the case of Tim's promotion the board (of which I am a member) made a recomendation that the WMAA promote based on input (and endorsement) from Dr. Gyi, Datu Jornales, as well as input from other advisors.
And yes, juniors DO promote their seniors. Look at the history of Isshinryu karate among others.
For the record, since it apparently is an issue to some, my vote to recommend the promotion was based on two things. The first is Tim's ongoing effort to develop, lead, and promote a first-class, non-political Modern Arnis organization. I feel he is doing a better job at this than anyone (no slight intended to anyone else, just that I feel Tim is doing the best job.) Second, I see Tim personally striving to improve his own knowledge of the art by researching its origin, and applying that research in his teaching.
I have known and trained with Tim since around 1995; that is enough time to be able to evaluate his growth. (And Tim became my teacher of record only in the last year before anyone starts on that.)

Lastly, is the issue Tim's being promoted, or a personality conflict??

 

[moromoro]

Actually i have no problem with tim.... he may be a great guy (i dont know)
he makes his living from the FMA (good on him)

He use to train with the Prof (RIP) 5-6 times a year (great).......

I just want answers, firstly he was graded to 6th degree by the Prof (RIP) right?? why wasnt this good enough???????

iam sure 1 degree by the Prof is worth more than 100 degrees by the WMAA board........

WHy not do what others have done and get graded by your seniors in the same art........or stay the same rank...... is rank so important that you need a board of juniors to rank you?????

please answer tim

thanks

terry


Dan
also as far as challenging goes every eskrima school should be open for all challenges what are you going to do turn it down??????
Thanks Dan
terry

If people are looking for good sparring/ challenging????
Why dont you go to the dog brothers met from what i have seen on the net there the closest thing to real eskrimadors in the U.S....

also i can tell from how people have been responding to my post that most of you are not fighters, just cry baby's


also MT is larger than the FMA section most of my post have been ansewred by
................... probably over 500 hundred of them have been smilies in the locker room

 

[moromoro]

hi kaith can you post your reply on budoseek about the rank of the members of the board here for everyone to see.....

 

[John J]

In the case of Tim's promotion the board (of which I am a member) made a recomendation that the WMAA promote based on input (and endorsement) from Dr. Gyi, Datu Jornales, as well as input from other advisors. And yes, juniors DO promote their seniors. Look at the history of Isshinryu karate among others. QUOTE]

My comments are based purely from this thread.

I met Tim many years ago and I can attest for his passion of the Filipino Martial Arts. However, what does Dr. Gyi's endorsement have to do with ranking in the FMA? Regarding juniors promoting, I beg to differ. It is not common practice in the Philippines or FMA in general. The board should consist of his peers and seniors. They are the ONLY qualified individuals to make such assessment. I realize that all are not members of the WMAA. So, will such a rank be recognized by his other peers, seniors and representatives in the Philippines???

 

[thekuntawman]

i do not think that the multi levels of ranking like karate ranks, with up to 10 degrees of black belt, is good for the philippine martial arts. especially in a martial arts community where the measuring tool for skill is everything except fighting.

what i see now, is that, in a short amount of time, you can get very high degrees in the philippine martial arts, and this is a bad thing. look into tae kwon do, where every school owner is a 6th degree or more. in arnis and eskrima, nobody is satisfied with 1st or 2nd degree, unless he has 4 or more black belts. people are more interested in gaining more rank, than in developing better skill. when was the last time you saw a 2nd or 3rd degree black belter in the FMA who owns a school? now, you have people with less experience than you do, who are giving you MORE rank?/?? no wonder people laugh at the FMA today. and people are so busy talking tough in there own little circles, they dont even notice.

if rank is not the priority, then there would not be so many organizations giving out more and more rank everytime you turn around. we are becoming like tae kwon do, and that stinks.

what happend to just having experts and teachers? why does everybody have to be lakan ____ whatever? what masters do you see putting that out? there is a saying that fits this, that titles are for men whos ability does not speak for them.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by moromoro
Actually i have no problem with tim.... he may be a great guy (i dont know)
he makes his living from the FMA (good on him)

He use to train with the Prof (RIP) 5-6 times a year (great).......

. . .

Terry, Where do you get your attitude towards Tim? You asked me about mine towards you? I ask in return. You say you do not know him. I say I do not know you, only from the others posts and information about others. I agree with you and the Kuntawman on this, training in person is the best. One on One is where the msot can be learned.

Originally posted by moromoro
WHy not do what others have done and get graded by your seniors in the same art........or stay the same rank...... is rank so important that you need a board of juniors to rank you?????

. . .

thanks

terry

Hmmm, Seniors, the only ones that could be found would be the those in PI that GM RP promoted. Yet they are only 8th degree. So tehy can only promote to 7th degree. And then the next generation could only promote to 6th degree, and the the next generation would only be allowed 5th degree.

Let me ask you a question, who promoted all the old GM's in the PI? Was it recognition from their students? Was it recognition from their peers, from a different style?

I am very curious, to hear who promoted them? OR did they just claim the title and then from their either defended it or just lived with the it?

Originally posted by moromoro

If people are looking for good sparring/ challenging????
Why dont you go to the dog brothers met from what i have seen on the net there the closest thing to real eskrimadors in the U.S....

Dog Brothers are a good. I cannot get out to the West Coast at that time(s) of the year. It is one of the things I want to do. Yet, for it to really make positive contributions I should go mulitple times. Just not in the cards.

Originally posted by moromoro

also i can tell from how people have been responding to my post that most of you are not fighters, just cry baby's

Your opinion of those you talk about is clear. Yet, you seem to not take any criticism back? It could be perceived to others that you might also be a non-fighter just be yelling on the internet only. We have no proof of your other exploits. They might be true and even understated, yet how are we to know ?

Note: It goes both way, and if you enter into a discussion with no respect for others, then do not expect to receive any in return.

Originally posted by moromoro

also MT is larger than the FMA section most of my post have been ansewred by
................... probably over 500 hundred of them have been smilies in the locker room

over 500 Smileys?

This would be considered Fluff. So you support Fluff to obtain your rank here on Martial Talk? What a person does in place of their life do they not apply the same values to other places in tehri life? This also points to a person who requires their ego to be recognized. If this is not the issue, you could ask for the posts to be trimmed and you could also disable your rank in your profile.


Terry, enjoy our training. Enjoy posting here as long you stay with in the rules, (* Like I will *) and please try to understand, I am not trying to change you into my image of what you should be. I am only trying to give feedback, so you can still improve and understand that people look at things differently from you. Not saying either sde is right or wrong only that are more than two ways of looking at something.

Have a Nice Day

 

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Hmmm, Seniors, the only ones that could be found would be the those in PI that GM RP promoted. Yet they are only 8th degree. So tehy can only promote to 7th degree. And then the next generation could only promote to 6th degree, and the the next generation would only be allowed 5th degree.

Let me ask you a question, who promoted all the old GM's in the PI? Was it recognition from their students? Was it recognition from their peers, from a different style?

I am very curious, to hear who promoted them? OR did they just claim the title and then from their either defended it or just lived with the it?


Have a Nice Day

i dont think its necessary to have so many degrees in the philippine martial arts. like i said, most philippine martial arts have only fighting techniques and strategy to learn, and less than what is in most foreign styles. for the ranking of older filipinos, they do not have these kinds of rankings. as a matter of fact i the only ones i know who use those dan rankings are the presas brothers and carlito lanada, but they have japanese martial art influences. most other fma "masters" are called master and recognized to be a master by his community. i believe that only the fighter can give himself a title like that, and its up to the community around him to use the title. as long as that master can back it up, or have students that can back it up.

in the case that only your peers in the philippines can promote somebody, if they are the only ones with higher rankings, then, yes, you will have to go there. or bring them here. but see the arrogance, many people dont want to do that, because they think it would make them less than the filipino, and the only one they want to respect is remy himself. you know you cant be a leader if you are not willing to follow. but i say again, who cares about those higher ranking, especially if you didnt take more classes to get them?

now lets say remy dies when there is only 3rd and 4th degree black belters around. is there really a need to get a 5th degree? so what? do you know that, carlito lanada, the founder of kuntaw ng pilipinas, his own daughter alice is a 4th degree? she had this degree in the 1980s and ten years later she still is. why is this, because she knows her dads art, and she does care to get a higher rank, even though her skill was better and 31 than it was when she was 21. if your teacher died when you are only a third degree and you "made it through the ranks" to a 7th degree, is it really the same? does it change your fighting art? how about how much respect your students will have for yourself? only in the FMA, will you find a 5th degree black belter with less than 10 years of arnis experience.

any way to answer your questions, rank is not something given out in the philippines by most teachers. only in the well establish schools do you find it. mostly your going to see people who learned from different masters, and some will have "permission" to teach his style, but most do not, and he is recognized as a teacher or master, simply because he introduce himself that way, and when the people see him move, they agree. certificates and titles and rankings, they are business practices. i do it in my school, but i didnt get certificates. i didnt even get one from ernesto presas and i am a second degree. i did get one from boggs lao and carlito lanada, because i saw one and i wanted one. it didnt cost me any money. when i was given a third degree black belt, he just said, your a third degree now.

the only real important thing is the martial arts is skill and ability. all that rankings stuff is show. if you take a good brown belter, and black belters of different degrees and take off there belts, i would bet you cant guess who has what, so what does that tell you.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok Terry...lets play...

Here is the original announcement from the WMAA:

Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.
On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.

This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.

The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.

/s/
Jeffery J. Leader, PhD

for the WMAA Advisory Board:

Charles E. Dulin
Paul Janulis
Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
Ingmar Johansson
Sal Todaro

Here is the info on the board members listed:

Jeffery J. Leader, PhD
3rd degree WMAA Modern Arnis
(from a profile on martialtalk.com)
He has studied several Okinawan karate systems and a number of Japanese martial arts and presently studies JKD and BJJ, but his black belt is in Modern Arnis.

Charles E. Dulin
5th Degree Black Belt in Ryukyu Kempo (DKI)
2nd Degree Black Belt in Modern Arnis (WMAA)
2nd Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do
Apprentice Instructor in Sayoc Kali.

Paul Janulis
2nd degree WMAA Modern Arnis


Ingmar Johansson
Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate 4: th degree black belt
other arts listed : Mano y daga

Sal Todaro
1st degree WMAA Modern Arnis
3rd Kyu - Ryu Te
additional art info : Balintawak - Sayoc Kali

Note - that is the info -I- was able to locate. That is not complete. I did not have at that time, nor do I now the full info on the others involved in the promotion.


In the case of 'leadership'. While others sit on their asses and 'maintain' things, Tim is traveling the world, both spreading the art, and researching its roots.

What I find interesting here is that a 23-24 yr old is so bent outta shape. Hell son, I'm your senior here. Don't they have that "respect for your elders" thing where you come from? Guess not. Looks like you have little respect for anything or anyone other than yourself, and whoever can kick you ***.


thekuntawman had a good point here:

the only real important thing is the martial arts is skill and ability. all that rankings stuff is show. if you take a good brown belter, and black belters of different degrees and take off there belts, i would bet you cant guess who has what, so what does that tell you.

Ed Parker used to say he could tell a persons level by how they moved. I'm getting to the point where I can tell the seniors from the students. Flow, control, grace even is present in the more expreinced and skilled, where the newbie seems to just flail away. I tend to agree, there are too many belts, and too often they are just decoration. But, they serve a few purposes. Some financial (test fees, etc), some just to help an instructor in a busy school remember which students are working on what part of the curiculum. After a certain point, it seems to be more for 'time in', and 'job well done', than an expression of actual martial skill.

Personally.... I favor a simplified system. White for student, brown for instructor, black for head instrutor. No stripes, no slashes, nothing fancy. But then again....I don't teach and I dont run a school.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

I don't put much stock in Belts myself. I am not a rank collector. I am only a 2nd degree in Modern Arnis, and a 0 degree in Balintawak, and a 0 degree in Bando. I have a black belt in Tai Kwon Do hiding in my room somewhere, as well as an Aikido designation, championship trophies from tournament fighting, as well as other obscure cerificates from other systems.

What do these designations mean in regards to fighting? They really don't mean squat. I could fight everyone on this Forum, and miraculesly kick everyones butt who has a higher rank then me. Then, on my way to my car after kicking everyones butt, I get robbed, stabbed, and killed by an untrained, disgruntled midget.

I am being a bit flamboyant here, but I think you understand the point. Belts and trophies don't win fights.

On the other hand, when you have a leader of an organization who is well recognized by the FMA community, and by his own students, there is nothing wrong with his students and peers elevating him to a higher rank, title, or designation. Not only is there nothing wrong with it, but when someone accomplishes a lot regarding their art, they SHOULD get a higher rank or designation to show the world what that person has accomplished. Now unfortunatily, many rank moves, titles, and designations are done for marketing and political reasons. Tim Hartmans promotion, however, was not done for marketing or political reasons at all. It was done because Tim has accomplished a high level of skill, and accomplishement within the Modern Arnis and FMA communities worldwide, and we felt that he needed to be recognized for it. The fact was, there were people who had been trying to promote Tim to a higher designation immediatly following professors passing. There are also people who til this day would like to see Tim given a title such as grand master, or a rank such as 10th degree. The reasons for this are due to Tims high level of skill, and not for superficial reasons. Tim has humbly turned these promotions down, however, for he felt that after his teachers death it would have been too soon for any kind promotion, and that GM or 10th degree designation would also be a bit premature. We all forced him to accept his 7th degree designation, however, so he had to take that one!

So, in regards to Tim Hartman, he has more then earned his promotion; in fact by only accepting a 7th degree, he IS really being humble. And there is nothing wrong with that.

:asian:
PAUL

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by moromoro

Dan
also as far as challenging goes every eskrima school should be open for all challenges what are you going to do turn it down??????
Thanks Dan
terry

Terry,
I have no clue as to what you are asking. What are you asking?

Yours,
Dan

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
1) i do not think that the multi levels of ranking like karate ranks, with up to 10 degrees of black belt, is good for the philippine martial arts, especially in a martial arts community where the measuring tool for skill is everything except fighting.

if rank is not the priority, then there would not be so many organizations giving out more and more rank everytime you turn around. we are becoming like tae kwon do, and that stinks.

what happend to just having experts and teachers? why does everybody have to be lakan ____ whatever? what masters do you see putting that out? there is a saying that fits this, that titles are for men whos ability does not speak for them.

i dont think its necessary to have so many degrees in the philippine martial arts. like i said, most philippine martial arts have only fighting techniques and strategy to learn, and less than what is in most foreign styles. for the ranking of older filipinos, they do not have these kinds of rankings.

2) as a matter of fact i the only ones i know who use those dan rankings are the presas brothers and carlito lanada, but they have japanese martial art influences.

3) now lets say remy dies when there is only 3rd and 4th degree black belters around. is there really a need to get a 5th degree? so what?

4) any way to answer your questions, rank is not something given out in the philippines by most teachers. only in the well establish schools do you find it.

5) A. the only real important thing is the martial arts is skill and ability. all that rankings stuff is show. B. if you take a good brown belter, and black belters of different degrees and take off there belts, i would bet you cant guess who has what, so what does that tell you.

Kuntawman,
Many excellent points.

1. A very short answer to this is this is what our teacher left us, belt ranks much like the Karate dan rankings so that is what we deal with.

2. Absolutely and point taken.

3. My own personal belief is that if Remy could do it, so can I (I'm talking skill wise). If I don't think I can then I have no aspirations. Whether I actually become as skilled as he was is another matter entirely and only time will tell. So what? Ranking is supposed to be a matter of gradient measures of skill, experience and understanding of a martial arty. That's what they mean to me. That's so what.

4. Point well made and point taken.

5. A. Yes. B. Not necessarily. I jsut recently watched a video with Tony Diego and Antonio Illustrisimo on it I could tell who the teacher was and who the student was. Tony Diego is the successor to GM Illustrisimo and was good but the GM was the GM. Perhaps a brown belt and a lower black belt...maybe.

All in all, great posts.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - When I was in San Francisco for the First FMA Gathering, did we meet? If not, I'd like to meet you some time.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by John J
However, what does Dr. Gyi's endorsement have to do with ranking in the FMA? Regarding juniors promoting, I beg to differ. It is not common practice in the Philippines or FMA in general. The board should consist of his peers and seniors. They are the ONLY qualified individuals to make such assessment.

This is a no-win situation. To find someone higher than 6th degree in Modern Arnis one pretty much has to go to the Phil. But back there the form of Modern Arnis they're doing is at the least a different 'dialect' and nearly qualifies as a different art--the Prof. changed it so much here in the U.S. So, looking within the art is tough--esp. when you consider that Mr. Hartman is one of the datus of the art, which was supposed to be a sign of leadership within the art that was in some sense 'beyond' rank.

Dr. Gyi was close to the Prof. and was explicitly asked by the Prof. to help the Prof.'s students. Mr. Jornales is a Modern Arnis datu and a FMA grandmaster. Their endorsement seems relevant to me.

But the promotion is from the board. This is the Kenpo model, which again seems rather relevant to me--several Kenpoka were promoted in this manner in the wake of the problems that beset Kenpo after the passing of Ed Parker. Mr. Hartman had been close to the Kenpo community for years. He sought the counsel of Huk Planas in particular.

There was no winning on this one. There was no ideal way to proceed.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by John J
"However, what does Dr. Gyi's endorsement have to do with ranking in the FMA?"

Hi John J,

Tim and I talked about this over a year ago regarding the freezing of Modern Arnis ranks due to the death of our teacher. As two of the highest ranked North Americans (both 6th degree; mine in 1992 and his in 2000), we knew that this might end up being a sticky situation. Tim sought advice from several sources and mine was this: one gets promoted either by seniors or peers. Being promoted by a senior, whether by a board or a singular senior, is the most common way to go.

Being promoted by a senior not in your own style has precedents, though. Gichen Funakoshi was promoted to 5th dan when he was sent as a representative of Okinawan Karate to demonstrate for the emporer of Japan. The Budokai in Japan has granted recognitions of Shihan to many martial artists of various styles and arts.

Arnisador stated, "But back there the form of Modern Arnis they're doing is at the least a different 'dialect' and nearly qualifies as a different art--the Prof. changed it so much here in the U.S. So, looking within the art is tough..." Add to that this quote from Mark Wiley's book, Filipino Martial Arts Cabales Serrada Escrima, "Filipinos are a proud people, especially in the realm of personal combat. It is a rare practice for one Escrima master to acknowledge the skill of another, let alone speak of him with a tone of respect." Neither of had been to the Philippines so going there was not a realistic option. Dieter Knuettel, on the other hand, has been there numerous times and is known there.

Discussing this with Tim, I went over the historical data with him and felt that was the safest way to go. Since Remy Presas was then dead for over a year, being recognized by someone senior to us (Tim & myself) was better than a self promotion and could be contested slightly. We discussed the futility of promoting each other as neither of us had the rank to do so.

What gives his promotion the opening for attack was in the announcement of it. Those of in the know knew Dr. Gyi, GM Ric Jornales and Huk Planas were involved in the consulting. The announcement didn't say that and I feel that was the mistake.

The board made the announcement but the seniors made the call. I know this is in direct opposition to arnisador saying that the board made the promotion but I don't feel they would have gone ahead and done it without the direct support of the seniors. That's my opinion and I may be wrong.

Now let's go back to the quote of Arnisador's and consider something else. Tim is promoted to 7th dan in WMAA Modern Arnis. Nowhere is he saying he is also an IMAF, MARPPIO, IMAF, Inc., WMAC, old-school-back-in-the-Philippines Modern Arnis or Modern Arnis 80 7th dan. He is a WMAA Modern Arnis 7th dan, pure and simple.

All ranks before this one, whether Tim's, mine, Dieter's or anyone else's was given to us by Remy Presas. Those were in Remy Presas' Modern Arnis. There are, realistically, no more of these ranks to be awarded. None. The founder is dead and the dialects of Modern Arnis will flourish. There is historical precedent for that as well. One need only look at pictures of Gichin Funakoshi and current day Shotokan karate practitioners and the changes are evident.

A long winded answer, John J, but one I hope that fully answers your question.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i dont think its necessary to have so many degrees in the philippine martial arts. like i said, most philippine martial arts have only fighting techniques and strategy to learn, and less than what is in most foreign styles. for the ranking of older filipinos, they do not have these kinds of rankings. as a matter of fact i the only ones i know who use those dan rankings are the presas brothers and carlito lanada, but they have japanese martial art influences. most other fma "masters" are called master and recognized to be a master by his community. i believe that only the fighter can give himself a title like that, and its up to the community around him to use the title. as long as that master can back it up, or have students that can back it up.

In Traditional FMA, I agree with you. In Balintawak, I have the privilege of having the rank of Student of Manong Ted Buot. Yet, when we write his name many of us do it as Manong (GM) Ted Buot. Not only out of Respect, but to also to honor the man. In Modern Arnis, the GM created ranks and left us with them.


Now to quote you again.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i believe that only the fighter can give himself a title like that, and its up to the community around him to use the title. as long as that master can back it up, or have students that can back it up.

Wow, wait a second, here are you saying what I think you are saying. If the students of a fighter say he is a master, and they can back it up then the teacher is a master. Or if the Teacher can back it up himself, he can keep the title master? Then there should be no problem with Tim Hartman getting a 7th Degree from his Students as long as he can back it up. Therefore you problem is not with the students giving the rank, but the ranking system itself??? Just asking for clarification. Thank you :asian:

Originally posted by thekuntawman
in the case that only your peers in the philippines can promote somebody, if they are the only ones with higher rankings, then, yes, you will have to go there. or bring them here. but see the arrogance, many people dont want to do that, because they think it would make them less than the filipino, and the only one they want to respect is remy himself. you know you cant be a leader if you are not willing to follow. but i say again, who cares about those higher ranking, especially if you didnt take more classes to get them?

I would be thrilled to train with most anyone, including those in the PI. Yet, I cannot just pack up and go there right now. I have no place to stay. It is unfriendly to Americans. (* My Company has a no-travel policy right now based upon Government warnings of danger *) And as I would expect the seniors in the PI to expect me to not only train but to also return many times before anything is given or tested for.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
now lets say remy dies when there is only 3rd and 4th degree black belters around. is there really a need to get a 5th degree? so what? do you know that, carlito lanada, the founder of kuntaw ng pilipinas, his own daughter alice is a 4th degree? she had this degree in the 1980s and ten years later she still is. why is this, because she knows her dads art, and she does care to get a higher rank, even though her skill was better and 31 than it was when she was 21. if your teacher died when you are only a third degree and you "made it through the ranks" to a 7th degree, is it really the same? does it change your fighting art? how about how much respect your students will have for yourself? only in the FMA, will you find a 5th degree black belter with less than 10 years of arnis experience.

I agree that Rank has no input into actual Technique or skill level. Rank is for marketing and understanding how you have rated your skills. If you believe that Student / Fighter / Teacher / Master are sufficient then more power to you. You see I do not think you are wrong, I just ask you to consider that in our system our instructor did it differently.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
any way to answer your questions, rank is not something given out in the philippines by most teachers. only in the well establish schools do you find it. mostly your going to see people who learned from different masters, and some will have "permission" to teach his style, but most do not, and he is recognized as a teacher or master, simply because he introduce himself that way, and when the people see him move, they agree. certificates and titles and rankings, they are business practices. i do it in my school, but i didnt get certificates. i didnt even get one from ernesto presas and i am a second degree. i did get one from boggs lao and carlito lanada, because i saw one and i wanted one. it didnt cost me any money. when i was given a third degree black belt, he just said, your a third degree now.

I think the Canete Brothers also have a Ranking Program, as well as the Pekiti Tersia Organizations. Yet, I will say again, the old traditional systems did not have rank. I agree. Some people have decided to use it.

Let me ask you a few questions?

Do you Drive a car? Fly in a Plane? and or use a Micro Wave? or have a Cell Phone?

Cars a new, you could ride a bicycle or walk or ride a horse.

Planes are new and you could take an ocean going ship to get places, or maybe a train, if you want to use that modern advancement.

Microwave is Magic, it cooks without "Heat". And Cell Phones - you could use an old analog hand crank phone.

Oh Yeah do you use the Internet? You could always go back to trying to write paper letters to everyone you one to reach.

The point I am trying to make is that things change. Deal with it, or be like the Omish and live your life, yet do not condemn others that wish to move forward, whether you believe it to be right or not.

Originally posted by thekuntawman
the only real important thing is the martial arts is skill and ability. all that rankings stuff is show. if you take a good brown belter, and black belters of different degrees and take off there belts, i would bet you cant guess who has what, so what does that tell you.

Actually I agree with this statement. On Any given day anyone within a couple of ranks of someone else it could go either direction. Yet, Master or high rank degree BB versus teacher or low rank degree BB. I think it would be noticeable.

PS: I do not think you are a Racist, I think you are a proud Filipino who has an opinion, and unfortunately, wants everyone else to believe as he does. This does not detract from your skill or chances to post and reply here. Just recognize that others are different and may not always agree with you.
:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

It's about 12:30am. I'm back home and will have some stuff to say after I get some sleep.

 

[thekuntawman]

i dont have any problem with tim hartman calling himself a 7th degree black belter, except for the fact of using those degrees and titles (datu) in arnis ( i dont like that idea). the reason is, that i believe most people who use them play on the ignorance of others, to make them believe the "new innovation" is actually a filipino practice or tradition (like kinomutai, pananjakman, datu, tuhon etc).

i dont doubt that mr hartman has good skills. me, personally i would prefer to see him give HIMSELF the title of 7th degree, screw what everybody thinks, then to have it given by his students and friends. i am a believer in the saying that your credibility and reputation in the martial arts comes from your opponents than your friends. i believe he is looking at the FMA through japanese eyes, and that is why he choses to have a "board" give him a rank. the filipino way, like i said, and most filipino teachers will say, is to declare yourself a master of the art (i do not) and let the community except it or dislike it. the bottom line is, that he knows he can back it up, and the only people he should be concern with are the ones who step to him to say he does not agree. with skills, friends and students, he doesnt need anyone else to like it.

from what i have seen, most people called "master" are called master by everyone around him, but he does not introduce himself as a master of the art, but a teacher of the art. really to hear a man who is young (50 or younger) to call himself a master, or manong, or some other revered title, is ridiculous. but if his students chose to call him a master, that is something different. respect is given, not awarded.

you asked "Therefore you problem is not with the students giving the rank, but the ranking system itself??? "
there is no problem at all with the rank. i just do not like dan rankings for the FMA. and i dont like the importance people are giving to gaining more rank. but i blame the seminar process, since rank goes so fast in them. if remy said, "your belt comes when you can beat my 1st degree, and then my second degree, etc", people would been more motivated to train for skill instead of rank. like what i saw with delaney and that lady from new hampshire ( i forgot her name), that was disgusting.

"If you believe that Student / Fighter / Teacher / Master are sufficient then more power to you. You see I do not think you are wrong, I just ask you to consider that in our system our instructor did it differently."
agreed. i do understand that modern arnis is different. remember i use to be a modern arnis too. but i was only giving my opinion of how i see the preferences of modern arnis players.

oh and about alice lanada, i meant to say that she does not care about rank and degrees.

i can accept change, since things that dont change become outdated. but i dont agree that the seminar style teaching and multipled rankings are good for the philippine arts. yeah so what more people will like it more. if kuntaw became kun tae bo, more people would do it, but do you see how silly that looks? martial arts men are suppose to be different and special than average guys, so to make it easier so everyone can do it and like it is suppose to improve it? i dont think so.

congratulations to tim hartman. i am still willing to bet that 6th degree tim hartman vs. 7th degree tim hartman would be a draw. i dont see the benefit in the extra degree.

 

[Brian Johns]

Kuntawman,

You wrote very eloquently and you make some very good points in there. Maybe moromoro can learn a lesson or two in how to write a respectful post ???

 

[Guro Harold]

I agree, its one thing to have strong opinions and state them logically and with intelligence than to insult, belittle, and accuse.

One produces dialog and discussion which can hopefully produce respect and an understanding, while the other approach produces negativity.