Figure four guard

lonecoyote

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This happened to me a few months back and I wanted to get other people's opinions on it. I was in a bookstore and saw a book by a guy who has written books on grappling, conditioning etc. So I looked at it and saw how the guy advocated using a guard that looked like a figure four, instead of crossing the legs further down, he stuck his ankle under his opposiite side knee and held the guy in that guard position. So I told my instructor at the time and we tried it and it seemed like it would be a big mistake to ever use this kind of guard. It is incredibly easy to get a leg lock on a guy using this kind of guard, you don't even have to lean back. I freely admit I didn't read the whole book, maybe we were doing it wrong. Is this as bad an idea as we found it to be, or maybe we just didn't know how to pull it off?
 

Andrew Green

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umm...

Yeah... I'd not reccomend that...

No mobility, Can't use your legs for anything else...

Open to leg locks...

Who wrote this?
 
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lonecoyote

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It seems like I want to say Mark Hatmaker, and the title might have been Beyond Brazilian jujitsu. I could be wrong, though, it's been a while. I saw it at a big chain bookstore, Hastings.
 

Shogun

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Typically, it would be a bad idea. But, if you are bigger and stronger than your opponent, you can use this guard as kindof a choke. Wes Sims did this to Mike Kyle in UFC 47. I dont know about open to leg locks, though.
 
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tmanifold

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Are you sure it wasn't a triangle choke? Or maybe some sort of kidney squeeze?
 
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lonecoyote

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Kidney squeeze maybe, or it could maybe break a rib or whatever, cause it is tight. Certainly not a triangle choke. Just a bad idea IMO. Course I could have got it wrong, I just saw the book on the shelf and gave it a try. You can't really move, and though I know its not too hard to get a leg lock on an inexperienced guard, this one is super easy, cause you don't even have to open up your own leg to get it. Maybe Someone else could try it and tell me if I have it wrong
 
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lvwhitebir

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I've seen this in several books, especially Gracie books, but they've always demonstrated it when you're on the guys back. It's a lot stronger hold than just putting the hooks in.

WhiteBirch
 

Andrew Green

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Doing it on someone's back opens you to leg locks as well. Unless you got a arm trapped in there as well.
 
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lvwhitebir

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Andrew Green said:
Doing it on someone's back opens you to leg locks as well. Unless you got a arm trapped in there as well.

Can you describe the leg lock you're talking about? I can't picture how you could do it and have never seen it. From what I've read, this is a better lock than just having the hooks in because it more severely limits the opponent's movement. It's also better than having your ankles crossed because it removes the ability for him to do an ankle lock. I can't do the move myself because my legs are too short, but I would think that the moment he took his hands away from his throat to do any kind of leg lock that he'd get caught in a sleeper or forearm choke.

WhiteBirch
 

Shogun

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I cant picture the leg lock either. I can see a fig. 4 Toehold but not if you are keeping the hands busy. if the hooks are in by the legs, or the abdomen, they can hook your legs with theirs. if you are behind them, and the go for a leglock, they leave their neck unprotected. great lure, IMO.
 

Andrew Green

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Get their leg between yours, hook it with your legs and extend...

Kinda hard to explain without pictures, maybe I'll take a better shot at it later though...

I prefer hooks, simply because they are mobile. Commiting to a figure four takes that away and if they do go for the lock you can get in trouble without much chance to defend.

With hooks you can also work to trap an arm in there as well, or roll them and extend. Both of which make it easier to finish ...
 

James Kovacich

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If what I'm thinking your saying is right. It's common when taking the back. it susucks the wind out of the opponent and is not open to leg locks.

If your talking about doing this from a regular guard position it probably could be done without being open for a leglock. In the back scenario just tuck the leg (that has the foot tucked under it's knee) under his thigh.

I think that when taking the back this way they call it the triangle guard.
 
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JDenz

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It is good from the front or back. You are really not opening yourself up to fot locks because you hide your foot so no one can submit you. It works when you have a guy in your guard, and you don't want to give them space. Taking a guys back with them can be really effective. A few UFC's a go a guy tapped from it.
 
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richiehess

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the figure four guard is great if your on the ground and yo want to tire your opponent out because it pushes all of the air out of their body and makes it harder for them to. if you were watching ufc 51, you would of noticed that tito ortix used it againt the phenom. another frequent user of it is the 6' 10'' nutter wes sims
 
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