Female? Back of the bus please.

[Bob Hubbard]

Israel "back of the bus" rule sparks religious row


By Rebecca Harrison


JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Every time Israeli student Iris Yoffe takes the bus to Jerusalem, she has to be ready for abuse from ultra-Orthodox Jews who say she should be kept off because she's wearing trousers.


Assuming she makes it onto the bus at all -- on several occasions groups of Orthodox men have tried to block the door -- Yoffe, 24, heads for the "women's section" at the back of the bus, keeps her head down and tries to ignore the insults.


"I end up feeling helpless and humiliated, like an outsider," said Yoffe, whose public bus from her home in northern Israel to Jerusalem has separate male and female seating because it runs through an ultra-Orthodox community.

Rest of story at

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSL1417084320080115?sp=true

 

[Bob Hubbard]

This is the type of story I'd associate with Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan or Afghanistan, not a "Western" nation.

 

[MA-Caver]

This is the type of story I'd associate with Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan or Afghanistan, not a "Western" nation.

What would make Israel a western nation. Just because they worship Yahweh and not Mohammed? They would still stone a woman for adultery or ostracize her for not adhering to some ancient law. Sure the women there have a bit more freedom than their Muslim counterparts but some of the old ways still apply.
That part of the world has a ways to go to catch up with the rest... provided they want to.

 

[Doc_Jude]

What would make Israel a western nation. Just because they worship Yahweh and not Mohammed? They would still stone a woman for adultery or ostracize her for not adhering to some ancient law. Sure the women there have a bit more freedom than their Muslim counterparts but some of the old ways still apply.
That part of the world has a ways to go to catch up with the rest... provided they want to.

Yeah, the "Western" Jews are here... making sure we send plenty of money and guns to Israel.

 

[Tez3]

All religions have their fanatics, don't judge all Jews by the actions of the Ultra Orthodox. The rest of us even those in Israel don't behave as they do. They are actually a minority though a noisy one.
There are many schools of belief and thought in the Jewish religion, take time to look it up rather than condemn all of us.

 

[MA-Caver]

Yeah, the "Western" Jews are here... making sure we send plenty of money and guns to Israel.

Well, yeah, because despite being a nuclear carrying nation they need it. They're out numbered and surrounded by nations that hate their race. So... I think it'd be in OUR (U.S.) best interest to help them. But they do still need to grow up and get with the program as far as equality for women are concerned.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Every ethnic group in the US seeks support and sends same to their ilk at "Home". This has happened since before the US was the US. But that's a debate for another thread I think.

Story just struck me as very outdated mindset from a country I wouldn't have expected it from, based on what I know so far.

As to "Western Nation" I base that on that's how I've heard them referred to, their technological advancement as well as government type.

 

[Andrew Green]

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Every time Israeli student Iris Yoffe takes the bus to Jerusalem, she has to be ready for abuse from ultra-Orthodox Jews who say she should be kept off because she's wearing trousers.

Is it really that different then the reaction some people would get in some of the more fundamentalist Christian leaning areas? I'm thinking Gays, transvestites, Arabs, abortionists, etc.

Even the Rosa Parks incident was only 52 years ago, The US was Nuclear armed and had basically the same government structure then.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Good point.

 

[Kacey]

The Ultra-Orthodox, while a numerical minority in Israel, control quite a bit of the legislature, and this can be seen in many of the laws and the way the laws are interpreted and implemented. There are quite a few other laws that affect only Jews; the marriage laws are different for Jews, for example (which is a long, detailed discussion that bears little on this actual topic).

As far as segregation on the buses go, Orthodox men cannot come into contact with menstruating women, or with any item that a menstruating woman has been in contact with; if they do, they become ritually unclean. In NY, they deal with that by never sitting down on public transportation. In Israel, they deal with that by segregating the buses. Now, they could get the same effect by splitting the buses down the middle... but the Ultra-Orthodox are rather patriarchal in this regard.

In creating a Jewish state, a great deal of dissension was created within the Jewish people. A large segment of the Jewish population of the world was actually against the creation of Israel at the time it occurred; according to the Bible, the creation of a Jewish state would occur in God's time, at God's bidding, and people should not have taken that task away from God. Once Israel was established, however, the Ultra-Orthodox decided that, if it were going to be done, it had best be done according to Biblical law, and quite of a few of the laws passed were based on that. For example, in the Bible, it is mandated that fields lie fallow every seventh year (which is sound, from a farming perspective, especially at the time) - but this is the seventh year, and quite a few things that are usually grown in Israel cannot be grown this year because the fields lie fallow. Now, from a modern perspective, rotation of crops would make more sense - but the Biblical law was written into the laws of the country, and it is enforced as written.

Does it seem outdated? Certainly. Does every Jew in the country (or the world) agree with it? Not at all. But until the governmental laws change, which won't happen until some other group takes a bigger role in the government than the Ultra-Orthodox, or they change their views (unlikely, IMHO), that's the way it is, and that's the way it's going to stay.

 

[CanuckMA]

In adition toKacey's excellent summation, I want to add that this only occurs on a handfull of bus routes that go through Ultra-Orthodox neighbourhoods. The segregated buses are marked as such. And contrary to what many would believe, the women in those communities are not fighting against the arrangements.

 

[Empty Hands]

This has less to do with Judaism and more to do with the fundamentalist mindset, which can be found in any religion, or even causes outside religion. As Kacey notes, they Ultra-Orthodox have outsized power for their numbers in Israeli society. This is especially jarring as the majority of Israelis are not particularly devout or observant Jews.

One of these days Israel will have to figure out whether they are a religious or a secular state. I don't envy them the task given the resonance that the state of Israel has with the Jewish identity.

 

[Steel Tiger]

All religions have their fanatics, don't judge all Jews by the actions of the Ultra Orthodox. The rest of us even those in Israel don't behave as they do. They are actually a minority though a noisy one.
There are many schools of belief and thought in the Jewish religion, take time to look it up rather than condemn all of us.

Extremism is a part of all religions and its adherents are usually unpleasant in some way (except maybe Jainism).

You certainly can't judge the whole car on the squeakiness of one of the seats.

 

[chinto]

Israel "back of the bus" rule sparks religious row


By Rebecca Harrison


JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Every time Israeli student Iris Yoffe takes the bus to Jerusalem, she has to be ready for abuse from ultra-Orthodox Jews who say she should be kept off because she's wearing trousers.


Assuming she makes it onto the bus at all -- on several occasions groups of Orthodox men have tried to block the door -- Yoffe, 24, heads for the "women's section" at the back of the bus, keeps her head down and tries to ignore the insults.


"I end up feeling helpless and humiliated, like an outsider," said Yoffe, whose public bus from her home in northern Israel to Jerusalem has separate male and female seating because it runs through an ultra-Orthodox community.

Rest of story at

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSL1417084320080115?sp=true

ok,, simple thing folks.. you go to some one else's country you play by their rules! simple.. they come here they play by our rules! If you do not agree with their rules, then do not go there and spend your money. its simple. there are a lot of country's I will not visit for that reason. but if you do go there .. DO NOT COMPLAIN! you agreed to it as far as I am concerned when you went to their country . If you do not agree do not go! simple. most islomic country's have things I find offensive and so will not visit and spend my money in..

 

[BrandiJo]

Human rights should be equal no matter where you live tho. Having to endure a beating being spat on and insults because you got on a bus while wearing pants is horrid, regardless of what religion it is for.

 

[Tez3]

Human rights should be equal no matter where you live tho. Having to endure a beating being spat on and insults because you got on a bus while wearing pants is horrid, regardless of what religion it is for.

She doesn't say she was beaten. As we've already been told the segregated buses are marked as such so she has a choice. It could be taken that she is insulting and challenging their beliefs and values by going on a bus clearly marked as segregated, wearing trousers.I agree that being insulted isn't pleasant but there are two sides to this story. The men may feel that she is equally insulting to them knowing what they believe. It's on a par with injuring cows to Hindus, offering pork to Moslems, or burning the American flag to Americans etc. for her to wear trousers on an Ultra Orthodox bus, to them women don't wear male clothing, it's the Law to them. I don't think people realise how upsetting to them (and such a small thing to us) it is.The fact this is in the news may mean that someone is trying to be provoking.
A friend of mine goes to a Shul that separates men and women with the women going to the balcony, I asked if she didn't want to be downstairs with men and women being equal. She looked at me very strangely, why on earth, she asked, would the women want to be equal with the men, it would mean lowering themselves to their level! don't assume the Ultra Orthodox treat their women badly and remember Judaism has a matriarchal society.

 

[Cirdan]

Wearing a skirt and sitting in the women`s section seems to be voluntary.
If this is the case I have little problem agreeing with those who describe the abuse as "bullying women in the name of God". It is all to typical to see religious people wanting the right to spit on those who do not neccecarily share their beliefs.

 

[CanuckMA]

It's always ineresting to see that in all those instances, it's outsiders trying to 'liberate' the Orthodox women. It's not like there is an uprising of Orthodox women against the established rules of the community.

What idf people decides to go into Amish communities and act against the standards of that community?

We have strict rules on modesty. Don't come into my community to break those rules and act surprised if you don't seem welcomed.

 

[Tez3]

This is all about seeing a situation through someone elses eyes and at the moment most people are jumping on the band wagon condemning those they think are wrong. What happened to the expression walking a mile in someone else's shoes?
This young woman chose to use a segregated bus where she knew wearing trousers would upset the occupants.I guarentee she would have at first been asked politely to refrain from getting on the bus thus attired, she continued to try to get on this particular bus day after day. The Ultra Orthodox don't go on the beaches where people are in skimpy beachwear and harangue them, they stay away so why does this woman insist on going into their 'territory' to continually insult them? she could easily wear her trousers on a non segrated bus and have no problems at all. All those who don't believe in religion don't go in bikinis and swimming trunks to their local Catholic church's Mass, you wouldn't walk into your black neighbours house wearing KKK rigout would you?
You don't have to understand or agree with what people think and believe but then you don't have to continually insult them. In another thread there is a discussion about burning flags, as I've said burning national flags means nothing to me, it's a piece of material but there is no way I would come to America and stand and burn your flag because I know how many of you would be upset, I wouldn't have that for the world. If I'm looking around a Christian Cathedral I wear a skirt and cover my arms and in some places in Europe a headscarf, I wouldn't wear skimpy shorts and tshirts. In Israel I wouldn't get on a segregated bus but if invited to an Orthodox home I would wear a long skirt and modest top.
It's not spitting on someones beliefs nor is it bullying to expect people when entering 'your world' to respect the way you live. This woman entered a place for the orthodox, she has a choice and she is the one doing the insulting.
On the role of the Ultra Orthodox women,how long do you think that the Ultra orthodox society would last if the women didn't support it? It is admittedly a closed world to most including most Jews but while they are different please don't jump on the band wagon and automatically conclude they are in the wrong here (though I and most Jews don't condone the insults and jostling) think how it would be if something you strongly believed in was trampled on and thrown in your face in your own backyard!

 

[aedrasteia]

Your comments are interesting and some are valid. They certainly made me think and remember.

Respect for the choices of others, particularly for their private conduct and family relations, is important. And control of those personal choices is theirs. I think you may be confusing public and private choices. But similarly, the Israeli government has also mixed them. It has been forced to publicly accommodate (and pay for) the private choices of Ultra-Orthodox people and require non-Orthodox people to accommodate those choices also. Accomodation here, means agreeing to run segregated public buses demanded by a small minority, operated and paid for by the transportation system that serves the entire public, but which all members of the public (if of the wrong kind) cannot use without harassment or assault.

A public bus is not ‘their world’. According to the transportation ministry the segregation by gender is voluntary. The Israeli student is absolutely within her rights to ride on any public bus. Those who harass her are violating the regulations on public bus travel.

Travel on a public bus is not a choice of private conduct. The key is that public accommodations and public transportation are exactly that: public. And anyone using a public bus is governed by regulations that cover everyone else, including those regarding dress and harassment.

Your analogies are misplaced. An Orthodox person at a public beach has every right to voluntarily be there, but cannot harass others. Visiting an Orthodox home means accepting/respecting their preferences within their own homes or they can legally ask one to leave, a black family in their own home can control who enters. A church/synagogue/mosque is not a public space (it is open to all by decision of those with religious authority; those persons can make decisions about individuals/appropriate dress on their property).

(quote from news story) "I end up feeling helpless and humiliated, like an outsider," said Yoffe, whose public bus from her home in northern Israel to Jerusalem has separate male and female seating because it runs through an ultra-Orthodox community.

The Ultra-Orthodox can certainly run their own private transportation services where they could fully enforce their preferences without any opposition and without infringing on any others. But they do not. In this case (as in many, many others) they have compelled the civil authority to enforce (and pay for) their private, religious preferences and on people who do not share them, (but who must also pay for them if they pay taxes). It is a problem Israel has never been able to solve. Reasons for that inability are well worth another thread.

But here is a thought experiment, for all of us.

Rewrite your post and make one tiny change. Write as if discussing the segregated public buses of Montgomery, Alabama (USA) in 1955 – a similar public bus system, in a strongly religious community where many people had deep beliefs that racial segregation was required (often based in their religious values). Given your argument, perhaps the city of Montgomery (and all taxpayers, including black people) should have agreed to pay for public buses that were completely segregated so that white men and women would not have to travel in the same spaces as blacks? Black people in Montgomery certainly had to pay for buses in which they were required to be segregated. It was not voluntary. And write as though you were describing Rosa Parks. Perhaps seeing the situation through her eyes.

What are your thoughts ? Especially regarding public enforcement of private preferences. And FYI, I’m white, a female and I rode on buses that were segregated in my southern city till long after the Montgomery boycott succeeded in Alabama. Not until the Public Accomodations Act of 1964 did the law across the US change – and in the real world, segregation in public services like buses and schools slowly changed into the late 60s and 70s and were fought every step of the way.