Extensions -- why the change?

[dcence]

Here is a question:

The extensions were changed by Mr. Parker soon before his death. Why the change?

Where there essential element(s) of Kenpo missing in the previous version that it was important enough to overhaul?

Did some of the extensions violate some principles?

Had some of the previous version become antiquated/

Was there an evolutionary element to it? If so, what is better in the last version than in the prior version (assuming there was an improvement in the evolution)?

Are none of these questions relevant, and it was simply Mr. Parker's way of seeing who was with him and who was not?

Is there some other reason?

Okay, so it turned out to be more than one question.

Derek

 

[Goldendragon7]

Many of the techniques were at one time taught completely....... like the Dance of Death!

Then, at some point it was broken down into 2 parts ..... the 1st Part is as we know today which stops after the chop to the groin prior to flipping the opponent over...

then the 2nd Part which we now are actually "DOING" the Dance of Death!

:asian:

 

[Shiatsu]

This may not be EPAK related, but I want to know. Dcence does the AKKI teach extensions. If no, why not. Just curious.:asian:

 

[kenpo12]

What changes were made?

 

[dcence]

This may not be EPAK related, but I want to know. Dcence does the AKKI teach extensions. If no, why not. Just curious.

At the risk of thread diversion, I'll answer this quick as I understand it -- knowing I could be off base a little or a lot.

The AKKI curriculum up to green includes all the master keys. These are the tools to teach you how to move. From those tools you are expected to be able to begin to extermporaneously produce your own techniques and extensions if needed to fit the situation, relative position, etc. at the time. You are expected to be able to move spontaneously. If you have the tools and know how to use them you can build whatever you need without it being scripted out. In Brown you begin to use those same tools/master keys for combination attacks, and in situations where your first few moves are countered -- hence the trapping/offensive techniques in Brown. Then on to use those tools for weapon defense and mass attack scenarios. But, let's not get thread drift here though.

Many of the techniques were at one time taught completely....... like the Dance of Death!

Then, at some point it was broken down into 2 parts ..... the 1st Part is as we know today which stops after the chop to the groin prior to flipping the opponent over...

then the 2nd Part which we now are actually "DOING" the Dance of Death!

Yes, but my question is why the change in the extensions later in Mr. Parker's life? For example, before, the extension to Clutching Feathers was pretty simple. The more recent version is much more involved. Does the newer version teach a principle concept, etc. that wasn't already in the EPAK somewhere?

Which begs my question of "Why?"

I believe that you can go to any extension and find an associated move in the base techniques that teaches the same thing but with some variation. Again, my question isn't "Why have extensions?" That is a different question. My question is why the change later in Mr. Parker's life?

In my opinion it has less to do with the content, i.e., that some hole in the curriculum needed to be filled, and more with Mr. Parker wanting to distinguish between who was with him versus those who had left him and, to some extent, those who were comfortable sitting on the side of the road with what they had . Also, I think it has to do with some of the "awkwardness" of some of the extensions and the high level of partner cooperation to pull it off. But that is my supposition.

Derek

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by dcence
My question is why the change in the extensions later in Mr. Parker's life? Derek

My views and recollections are, the techniques were split at one point to cut down on the lengthy status of several techniques at one time and to extend the system a few more levels past Green [32 technique system was only up to Green], this then would create Brown & Black Techniques.

The Extensions were added to deliver not only already known material (principles) but also to emphasize the ability to apply the same principles to the lower half of the body {you'll find more buckles and lower case focus in the extensions}. Of course, with the additional material it also helped with the marketing of the "system" thru a few levels of Black as a commercial vehicle as well.

As far as to your "mark the territory" hypothesis, of who had what and who didn't at any particular time frame ...... well, he always did that.
:asian: :rofl: but I don't think that was a prime motivator.

But then again these are just my personal views and opinions.....

As always, a joy to share and spar with you Derek!
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpo12
What changes were made?

As you can probably read from many posts... the material over the years has been modified or updated several times.

As an example Dance of Death was taught completely through {what we know today as the extension} when I first learned it. At a later date, this and other techniques were shortened and re-arranged within the system.

As the system evolved and new "exercises" or "drills" [such as the coordination exercises.... or the various "sets"] came into focus, Mr. Parker added them to the curriculum.

:asian:

 

[dcence]

What changes were made?

What I am talking about are the changes between the way techniques and to a larger extent, the extensions were done up to the early 1980's and the way they were done in the last few years of Mr. Parker's life. Principally, the official extensions were substantially changed.

My views and recollections are, the techniques were split at one point to cut down on the lengthy status of several techniques at one time and to extend the system a few more levels past Green [32 technique system was only up to Green], this then would create Brown & Black Techniques.

I understand why the extensions were done in the first place, but am looking for a definitive reason for why they were changed at the end of Mr. Parker's life.

The Extensions were added to deliver not only already known material (principles) but also to emphasize the ability to apply the same principles to the lower half of the body {you'll find more buckles and lower case focus in the extensions}. Of course, with the additional material it also helped with the marketing of the "system" thru a few levels of Black as a commercial vehicle as well.

The extensions do focus on the lower half of the body, with all the sweeps, kicks at the person while on the ground, stomps, etc. Those are good things to know and work. I wish he had spent more time on weapons defense, groundwork and weapon use as I see these as needing some "improvement" in EPAK, with the advent of Gracies and FMA popularization in the last while, but I think that really came about after his death.

As far as to your "mark the territory" hypothesis, of who had what and who didn't at any particular time frame ...... well, he always did that. but I don't think that was a prime motivator.

You are probably right.

As always, a joy to share and spar with you Derek!

Please, the pleasure is mine. I don't deign to be on your level in these respects. So I appreciate your time and response.

Derek

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'll take a small stab at this topic...

First of all, I think a lot of techs such as dance were shortened because so many people were doing it so poorly. The logic being "lets get the first half right before we work the second". Many schools teach the first three moves only of any tech with just this mentality. There is plenty of time to add the rest later.

Secondly, While I only know the new stuff, I will venture to say that some of the old stuff just defied the logic the art is supposed to be based on. Ed Parker used to fret about how some of his articulated beliefs seem to be etched in stone when he like anyone else should be able to change his mind. After all He was learning things about Kenpo all along the way, up until his death.


While I do not wish to offend OFK or any Tracy's Kenpoists, Ed Parker simply did not believe or do the same things he did in the sixties that he did in the ninetees; His changes reflect that. I spoke to Local Tracy's Kenpoist named Kevin Francen(sp?), And he explained to me that as far as he was concerened Mr. Parker lost his marbles so to speak just after "his" people broke away. I suppose this belief would be one of the reasons they left in the first place.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by dcence
What I am talking about are the changes between the way techniques and to a larger extent, the extensions were done up to the early 1980's and the way they were done in the last few years of Mr. Parker's life. Principally, the official extensions were substantially changed.
Derek

Again, to pin point (eyebrows moving up and down), your question.... Nothing new.... Ed Parker was Progressive...... also it depended on whom he had around him doing what at any specific time in history. What turned out to be the last few years of his life, he had several {let me qualify this}, "good thinkers and researchers" that were still coming for lessons on a consistent basis, and to the credit of some of these students, I think they spurred him on with their questions [pointing out wording and execution on different combinations within the extensions - as well as some techniques & forms], that possibly these could be described better to fit with the evolved knowledge of the time. (Since I'm talking to you.... during this period Paul Mills had a definite effect on how we examined the element of speed, to site just one example).

Originally posted by dcence
I wish he had spent more time on weapons defense, groundwork and weapon use as I see these as needing some "improvement" in EPAK.
Derek

Again, When your time is up it's up, I agree with you and as many know.... there were many of the issues that you speak of on the "lengthy to do" list. His potential book "Speak with a Club", his 32 or more video series never made it past 2, and many other "projects" [as he called them], never came to be.

Sigh....... now you got me depressed......LOL

Originally posted by dcence
Please, the pleasure is mine. So, I appreciate your time and response.
Derek

A gentlemen, as always, you are a credit to your instructor and the AKKI
:asian:

 

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by dcence
Here is a question:

The extensions were changed by Mr. Parker soon before his death. Why the change?

Two main reasons, communication breakdown and evolution (as Mr. Parker saw it).

Refering to "communication breakdown" imagine the Telephone game. Mr. Parker does a technique, then has his student do it, then a third student writes it down slightly incorrectly...then later student #3 asks student #2 two for correction and we see another adjustment further into the "incorrect" catagory. The students he used were intellegent and trained well...it was simply not an easy job. Now, this mostly will explain the different versions out there that might have come out of a similar time.

Refering to "evolution." Mr. Parker started going through his entire system in the late 1980's and concluded just before his death. Mr. Parker went through EVERYTHING...from forms, to sets, to techs (base and endings).

I hope this helps.

WI, SI
UKS

 

[Dominic Jones]

Interesting thread.

Originally posted by Wes Idol
Mr. Parker went through EVERYTHING...from forms, to sets, to techs (base and endings).

Originally posted by GD7
pointing out wording and execution on different combinations within the extensions - as well as some techniques & forms], that possibly these could be described better to fit with the evolved knowledge of the time

With the British Keenpo Karate Union (BKKU) we follow Larry Tatum's interpretations of the extensions. Therefore it could be argued that we follow a fossilised Ed Parker curriculum (from the time LT and SGM Parker went their seperate ways).

Can you give specific examples of where certain:
techniques, forms and technique extensions; have changed.

Who in your opinion would be the senior(s), working close with SGM Parker preceeding his death, that are willing to share this information. It can also be argued that this is also a fossilised Ed Parker curriculum (from the time SGM Parker died)?

thank you

PS. For my own take on this subject (or perhaps another alltogether...). I consider its important to complete the system, whatever version it is, from there its time to spend your efforts:

1.
analysing the sytem, working out what works best and what doesn`t work best for you (personnally).

2.
Working on the system to focus on individuals interests. Be they breathing, anatomony/phisiology, free style, weapons, relation to other martial arts, etc...

Dom
:asian:

 

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Dominic Jones
Who in your opinion would be the senior(s), working close with SGM Parker preceeding his death

Mr. Parker had many students who certainly were his students, and also close friend, up until his death. In regards to his revised system, I know that Bryan Hawkins was the student who was with him three times a week (once at WLA school, twice at Mr. Parker's house)...this occured for the last few years of Mr. Parker's life...who witnessed and aided in the final revision.

Over the years the written material got out, and then you had people who tried to change their own applications to look more like how the latest manuals read (this I have witnessed individuals first hand doing such things). Unfortunately, it is very difficult to fully comprehend the information without someone showing you (something else I have witnessed individuals first hand).

With all this written, I suggest you find what moves you and is available and enjoy. There are many who were close to Parker in the end and some that weren't. There are some that are honest about it, and some that aren't. These realities do not take away from the talent and abilities of anyone.

Respectfully,

WI, SI
UKS

 

[Goldendragon7]

Bryan Hawkins became a student of Ed Parker's and became manager of the West LA Studio after Larry Tatum had been removed.

Several of Ed Parker's students were asked to give opinions and help with the revision of the manuals that you speak of ...... however none worked more closely with Mr. Parker than did Skip Hancock.

:asian:

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Bryan Hawkins became a student of Ed Parker's and became manager of the West LA Studio after Larry Tatum had been removed.

Didn't this happen in 1988? How many revisions happened in the three years before Mr. Parker died?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
Didn't this happen in 1988? How many revisions happened in the three years before Mr. Parker died?

Yes, I believe you are correct with the date.

Several additions, clarifications, reorganizations, and adjustments were added or made to the material during the last 10 or so years of Mr. Parker's life, much editing was accomplished during the prior 3 years as you asked, from what I saw and was involved with.


:asian:

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

much editing was accomplished during the prior 3 years as you asked, from what I saw and was involved with.

What do you think caused Mr. Parker to make so many significant changes to the system after 1988?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
What do you think caused Mr. Parker to make so many significant changes to the system after 1988?

As everyone knows, he was working on a video series (35 or so tapes), of which only 2 were produced prior to his death. He was organizing his "written" material [curriculums], in addition to other projects {books} to go along with the videos for his organization.

To me it was just the next step in his evolution and marketing of his system, and he wanted it as clear and supportive as possible for his members.

:asian:

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

As everyone knows, he was working on a video series (35 or so tapes), of which only 2 were produced prior to his death. He was organizing his "written" material [curriculums], in addition to other projects {books} to go along with the videos for his organization.

To me it was just the next step in his evolution and marketing of his system, and he wanted it as clear and supportive as possible for his members.

:asian:

Dennis,

Larry Tatum had put his first video series, When Kenpo Strikes, out around 1988. Do you think Mr. Parker revised his system and produced his tapes to squash Larry Tatum's efforts at the time?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
Dennis, Larry Tatum had put his first video series, When Kenpo Strikes, out around 1988. Do you think Mr. Parker revised his system and produced his tapes to squash Larry Tatum's efforts at the time?

Nope, he had been researching and discussing the possibilities of videos with many of us for some time prior to that, as he was certainly aware of many others that had started to produce videos on different aspects of the martial arts which were becoming a very popular market.

Other than that, any additional reasoning would only be speculation on my part.

:asian: