Everyone deserves the same...

[Zero]

So I guess this is applicable to all styles of MA but happened in a karate context. I caught up with some mates over dinner and also at the table was a bloke I do not know as a friend but who runs his own karate dojo. The chat was going back and forth over MA and training and he got talking about how he feels all karateka at his club (or in general) should be put through the same level of intensity during training, including contact. His wife, who was also at the dinner, also attends his club. He went on to say that when he spars or drill trains with his students he uses the same force against the females, inlcuding his wife and the men. And said he had deliberatley punched his wife in the face/nose, I gather not just a tap, when she had not been able to block him. Almost like he was trying to make a point or get off on that.

Now I am in no way taking anything from females (please do not jump on me, ummm better rephrase that, please do not give me a stomping!!), hell I know more than a few in my limited MA circle that technically could wipe the floor with me but I do think that recognising basic physical differences should come into MA training. If I hit a muscular well built and conditioned guy very hard to the torso I expect in general he will be able to take this better and sustain less damage than his female counterpart. There is a reason why after a certain age, almost all contact MA and sports in general separate men and female participants after all (and not just because women are more "trickery" than us blokes and would out-think us, although that I am sure is a reason). I do not think, when contact levels are going relatively high, be it in sparing or conditioning training, that you should expect females or teenagers/younger members to take the same level of contact as a grown man. After a degree, the physical attributes of your uke should be considered to the level of power/intensity you are dishing out.

Over the years and at various clubs I have witnessed the odd guy, much like this guy running his karate club, who seems to relish or at least not care about striking females or younger uke or sparing partners any differently to the men. I could never figure why and that does not sit well with me. I have also found when had the chance that it is these kind of guys who don't particularly like it when you start in on them at full contact, they generally don't have the best tournament record either (just something I have noted).

Anyhow, what's the take on this? It annoys me but I don't want to be seen as a chauvinistic pig.

Obviously all should be expected to attain the same degree of skill levels etc on progressing through ranks but do most on here feel that when you are training class or sparring that all should face the same levels of contact or that it should be meted out given the physical attributes of the uke?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think the real concern is not to single out women vs men, but to treat each sparring partner according to their individual needs.

If you were a 220-pound male black belt with pro-fighting experience sparring a 140-pound male white belt with no full-contact experience would you pound him as hard as your fellow heavyweight black belts? If so, would you expect him to come back for further training?

Sparring is a training exercise and like all exercises it needs to be tailored to the individual if you expect to get good benefits from it. Imagine going to a weightlifting class and having the coach tell you that "all our students lift the same weight - doesn't matter if they're pro bodybuilders or out-of-shape coach potatoes, grown men or little girls, I'll load the same plates onto their barbell." You'd think the guy was an idiot. If the coach potato tries lifting the weight that the bodybuilder needs, he's going to injure himself. If the bodybuilder lifts the weight that the coach potato needs, he won't feel it and won't get any benefit. Sparring is the same way - each individual is ready for a different intensity and level of contact.

Getting back to the gender question: some women may be ready for hard contact, some men may not be ready. On average probably most female students are less ready for hard contact than most male students - but the averages don't really matter if you pay attention to the individual and give them the intensity that they are ready for at this moment in their training.

 

[lklawson]

Anyhow, what's the take on this? It annoys me but I don't want to be seen as a chauvinistic pig.

Well, I generally agree with what Tony has said above. However, I will add this: What is the student's GOAL in training? Not everyone's goals in training are the same and not all of them are "Fighting." There are many reasons for doing martial arts.

To expand upon the subject a bit, even if the student's goal really IS for fighting, their abilities, both innate and trained, need to be accounted for. Even when the student's goal is fighting, the object of the exercise is for them to get better at fighting.

It sounds to me, based on past experience and on your description of the gentleman in question, that he has a somewhat narrow view of how to train for fighting. Yes, it is important for students to learn how to take a hit, how to work through pain, how to deal with aggressive fighting styles, but those have to be moderated based upon the current abilities of the student with the goal of allowing the student to improve. This moderation also needs to be in the context of every other aspect of fighting that the exercise is supposed to train for the student including such things as timing, distance, movement, footwork, body awareness, environmental awareness, etc. Simply punching a person in the face as hard as you can, regardless of their particular needs, only manages to accomplish one goal, poorly, and only in a very limited context.

In the gentleman's defense, his teacher probably never adequately explained or modeled to him that his role as an instructor is to instill all of these skills, at a pace the student is capable of.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think Tony and Kirk pretty well covered it. Might as well lock the thread now.

 

[ACJ]

Agreed, with the sparring that you should match your intensity to the physical, technical and tactical capabilities of your partner, and you should be sparring people both above and below (through necessity) your capabilities. It just so happens that a lot of women will be below the physical capabilities of men they spar, regardless of their capabilities in other areas, though the exception can occur, because statistics.

On the other hand, for the purposes of self defence, while using as much intensity as the "defender" can handle is one useful tool, so is using an amount of intensity that is well above the capabilities of the defender. Self defence by it's nature tends to not be equal, especially since the aim of the defender is not to stand toe to toe with their aggressor(s). I will often have the biggest guys attack the girls in a class, because that is the intensity they need to prepare and practice properly.

 

[Big Don]

When I first started learning Kenpo, I started sparring immediately. My instructor believes everyone should be able to defend themselves. Sparring is NOT about learning to throw a kick or a punch, any fool can kick and punch, sparring teaches us to TAKE kicks and punches. Some people don't spar, some people don't like to go hard. That is fine, for them, as for me, hit me hard. One of our newest Black Belts (he tested last Friday) is a Deputy Sheriff, he and I start off light, barely touching each other, that usually lasts about ten seconds. Then it is on and we are throwing blows, throwing each other and basically kicking the crap out of each other. We go hard because we WANT to be able to go hard in the world outside the controlled environment of the Dojo, if we have to. How could we do that, if we were never hit hard?

 

[K-man]

Some years back I lost a really good student. He was being graded to 5th kyu from memory and one of the more senior guys (BB), who should have known better, hit him quite hard and hurt him a bit. The problem here is the guy being graded was a quite tall 14 year old kid. Obviously we stepped in but the damage was already done. The student didn't continue with his training and we lost his father as well.

I don't mind going hard with anyone but it is always the choice of the lower grade how hard they go. Most times I just defend and touch the guys to demonstrate that they had left an opening. Hitting students who haven't the ability to defend themselves was prevalent in the 1970s but I haven't seen it as regular practice anywhere since. Apart from the legality and morality of it, the insurance wouldn't cover that sort of risk.

From the insurance point of view, a friend had an incident in his school where one of his senior students threw a beginner who fell badly and dislocated his elbow. Insurance will cover the medical bills, but the student is claiming loss of income as well. My friend will have to put up the first $1000. Most of us practise martial arts because we love it and most of us have to get up the next day and go to school or work. Injury is always a possibility, but reckless injury should not be one of the risks we face. And, not many of us could afford the money, that potentially it could cost us, if we suddenly start injuring people. :asian:

 

[harlan]

To the OP: yes, everyone deserves the same...consideration. For all the above reasons, each student and sparring partner deserves respect for the level of their ability. The point being to build up, not tear down; A student missing a block would in no way be rewarded with a full-power punch in the face in my school. BB's amongst themselves, sparring for self-testing/exercise, they decide the level of contact. Always respect.

 

[WaterGal]

I think the real concern is not to single out women vs men, but to treat each sparring partner according to their individual needs.

If you were a 220-pound male black belt with pro-fighting experience sparring a 140-pound male white belt with no full-contact experience would you pound him as hard as your fellow heavyweight black belts? If so, would you expect him to come back for further training?

Sparring is a training exercise and like all exercises it needs to be tailored to the individual if you expect to get good benefits from it. Imagine going to a weightlifting class and having the coach tell you that "all our students lift the same weight - doesn't matter if they're pro bodybuilders or out-of-shape coach potatoes, grown men or little girls, I'll load the same plates onto their barbell." You'd think the guy was an idiot. If the coach potato tries lifting the weight that the bodybuilder needs, he's going to injure himself. If the bodybuilder lifts the weight that the coach potato needs, he won't feel it and won't get any benefit. Sparring is the same way - each individual is ready for a different intensity and level of contact.

Getting back to the gender question: some women may be ready for hard contact, some men may not be ready. On average probably most female students are less ready for hard contact than most male students - but the averages don't really matter if you pay attention to the individual and give them the intensity that they are ready for at this moment in their training.

I totally agree with this! If you're sparring with someone in a lower weight class, keep that in mind and don't go full-force. Heck, don't go 100% full-force in class at all - we're there to train, not to injure each other.

But at the same time, you definitely still want to challenge your opponent if you have an advantage. I can't stand it when a guy goes really easy on me (beyond controlling his attack power) because he doesn't want to beat up a girl or whatever. I'm never going to improve that way.