Erroneous Aikido, The Amazing Story of..

[Jenna]

So Aikido does not work. You have seen the videos. Ain't no lies on Youtube. Put a little Tchaikovsky over the visuals and you have instant ballet de-caf and performed lovingly by men with long hair who are in touch with theirselves and by girls who are soft and sweet and imagine theirselves as rather quite dangerous underneath.. So Aikido does not work. FACT.. Oh no I am not being sarcarrrrstic, me I think Aikido does work and but I would add a big smelly caveat to that because I think it only works if you train it to work. Someone in Brian's "Real Aikido" thread mentioned the idea of Aikido being very "big" and that for me is one of the worst issues with what I would call Erroneous Aikido [it is a form very widely practiced and but sshhhh it is kind of secret like the dark arts stuff concealed and enshrouded in that nobody is allowed to speak of!] Now I am just giving my opinion here, that is all.

Q. What is Erroneous Aikido?
A. Erroneous Aikido is indeed very big, utilises half the mats in a series of seemingly random turning movements that serve only to impress people that are watching through the window and dizzy everyone else participating. Of course Erroneous Aikido is practiced in THREE dimensions and so I would see the Erroneous Aikido practitioners reach levels of airborne activity that are unconquerable to other mere ground based martial arts. Furthermore, Erroneous Aikido can have an element of martial philosophising and [scuse the word] "spirituality" and which is, I have noticed, remarkably easy for practitioners of the style to translate into sanctimoniousness and snobbery..

Q. Where does Erroneous Aikido originate from?
A. I do not know where the system of Erroneous Aikido originated from. Wikipedia says it came from a place called Ignorance, a nation formed by Major Marshall Fallacy and now no longer recognised by the international community as having any validity. Haha though you know how Wikipedia is at best!

Q. Can you recommend a good Erroneous Aikido school or club in my area?
A. Fortunately Erroneous Aikido is widespread in its outreach. Like most of you, I have practiced the style [without perhaps initially realising, such is the stealthy nature of its didactics]. With a sense of sadness I had watched many of my contemporaries subsequently leave Erroneous Aikido to pursue careers in fields as diverse as ballet and modern dance, studio stunt work and various forms of the clergy.

Q. What are the benefits of Erroneous Aikido?
A. Fortunately most practitioners of Erroneous Aikido do not realise the true error in their forms and are free to blissfully enjoy the gentle bonding with hippie friends that every peaceful martial art should.

Q. Are there drawbacks?
A. Sadly, some others might reach that point of enlightenment, perhaps upon realising that the man trying to wrest their purse or wallet from their soft, manicured hands is perversely uncompliant when the pin is deftly applied to his wrist, does not respect the circle nor even the notion of universal harmony. Sadly for those practitioners of Erroneous Aikido, their journey is over. They can progress no further in that style and are often forced into more, should we say, "barbaric" and cruel forms of martial art.

Q. What is the career progression for an awakened Erroneous Aikidoka?
A. Take heart! for the most unconvinced of Erroneous Aikido practitioners, they are the ones that perhaps during their training had had the epiphany moments, realising the potential in Aikido as Ueshiba presented his ideas. Perhaps they were sceptical of their own practices [caught the wrong end of many a tsk tsk for accidentally hurting someone in the dojo - sound familiar?]. Sceptical of Erroneous Aikido, yet finding a core and seeds of a potent martial art within their style. For these pracitioners, they will not leave for other shores where the natives disavow the flowing hakama and jump on each other, potentially HURTING their training partners, and calling it a martial discipline [Philistines!] These practitioners will take the good core from their Erroneous Aikido and they will make it grow into something altogether more practical; something closer to the original idea; something that sloughs off the nonsense, limp-wristed Erroneous Aikido pedagogies. Then THESE become the Aikidoka that are fit to call themselves.

Jenna x

 

[K-man]

Jenna, as I would have expected you have cut to the quick! Inciteful and succinct, how can any of us follow such wizardary of expression? I am just so glad I am on your side, or should that be .. by your side?

 

[Xue Sheng]

So Aikido does not work. You have seen the videos. Ain't no lies on Youtube. Put a little Tchaikovsky over the visuals and you have instant ballet de-caf and performed lovingly by men with long hair who are in touch with theirselves and by girls who are soft and sweet and imagine theirselves as rather quite dangerous underneath.. So Aikido does not work. FACT.. Oh no I am not being sarcarrrrstic, me I think Aikido does work and but I would add a big smelly caveat to that because I think it only works if you train it to work. Someone in Brian's "Real Aikido" thread mentioned the idea of Aikido being very "big" and that for me is one of the worst issues with what I would call Erroneous Aikido [it is a form very widely practiced and but sshhhh it is kind of secret like the dark arts stuff concealed and enshrouded in that nobody is allowed to speak of!] Now I am just giving my opinion here, that is all.

Q. What is Erroneous Aikido?
A. Erroneous Aikido is indeed very big, utilises half the mats in a series of seemingly random turning movements that serve only to impress people that are watching through the window and dizzy everyone else participating. Of course Erroneous Aikido is practiced in THREE dimensions and so I would see the Erroneous Aikido practitioners reach levels of airborne activity that are unconquerable to other mere ground based martial arts. Furthermore, Erroneous Aikido can have an element of martial philosophising and [scuse the word] "spirituality" and which is, I have noticed, remarkably easy for practitioners of the style to translate into sanctimoniousness and snobbery..

This would explain why early in my CMA training I had little or no respect for Aikido. I was able to easily defeat any Aikido person I sparred. That was until a woman half my size that apparently did not practice Erroneous Aikido slammed me to the floor a few times. I thought that was very cool and I have been rather impressed by Aikido ever sense but I have always been very worried about Aikido due to a couple of things.

First the over emphasis of spirituality by many that train Aikido; Spirituality seems to matter more than the Martial art and I too have seen that translate into sanctimoniousness and snobbery.

Q. Are there drawbacks?
A. Sadly, some others might reach that point of enlightenment, perhaps upon realising that the man trying to wrest their purse or wallet from their soft, manicured hands is perversely uncompliant when the pin is deftly applied to his wrist, does not respect the circle nor even the notion of universal harmony. Sadly for those practitioners of Erroneous Aikido, their journey is over. They can progress no further in that style and are often forced into more, should we say, "barbaric" and cruel forms of martial art.

Q. What is the career progression for an awakened Erroneous Aikidoka?
A. Take heart! for the most unconvinced of Erroneous Aikido practitioners, they are the ones that perhaps during their training had had the epiphany moments, realising the potential in Aikido as Ueshiba presented his ideas. Perhaps they were sceptical of their own practices [caught the wrong end of many a tsk tsk for accidentally hurting someone in the dojo - sound familiar?]. Sceptical of Erroneous Aikido, yet finding a core and seeds of a potent martial art within their style. For these pracitioners, they will not leave for other shores where the natives disavow the flowing hakama and jump on each other, potentially HURTING their training partners, and calling it a martial discipline [Philistines!] These practitioners will take the good core from their Erroneous Aikido and they will make it grow into something altogether more practical; something closer to the original idea; something that sloughs off the nonsense, limp-wristed Erroneous Aikido pedagogies. Then THESE become the Aikidoka that are fit to call themselves.

And the other one you have touched on above but it is not only Aikido that has fallen to this. Training hurts and it is supposed to. No you are not suppose to go out a bust up your training partner and send them to the hospital but if you train any MA properly it will push you beyond your limits and you WILL get hurt form time to time and if you are not hurt (talking minor hurt here people) while training in the controlled atmosphere of the school (example get punched in the face while sparing) if you are ever unlucky enough to have to use what you train for real and the other guy hits you in the face you will be in so much shock that no amount of light (soft) training will ever prepare you for it and you will lose BIGTIME.

And lastly

Q. What are the benefits of Erroneous Aikido?
A. Fortunately most practitioners of Erroneous Aikido do not realise the true error in their forms and are free to blissfully enjoy the gentle bonding with hippie friends that every peaceful martial art should.

Hippies...nough said

 

[punisher73]

Totally agree, why would they call Ueshiba's training hall "hell dojo" if it was practiced how most people practice it today?

Look through his book "Budo" at the pictures of him performing techniques and you see HIM grabbing the person sometimes to perform the technique and striking vital points to apply the lock/throw. Early students talk about when he grabbed their wrist to throw them they had big bruises where he grabbed because he was so strong.

In the book "Invincible Warrior" (biography of Ueshiba) it talks about him cutting and carrying wood and doing other things to increase his strength and condition his body. Yet, now all you here is that weight training, etc. will ruin your technique.

 

[Jenna]

Thank you all for taking time to read my terrible ranting I am sorry and but I am grateful to you all too thank you!!

@K-Man, thank you so much for replying and but I am not joking you know! I am conscious of sounding snobbish too as though I am some big expert. I had for a while sent a number of mails to uploaders on Youtube bout this [yes I had called it Erroneous Aikido] and some said the flamboyance was for the camera only and some said to bugger off and mind my business haha and which is ok I think Erroneous Aikido is like many false orthodoxies, not so happy to have critics! So I am torn, should I just “**** off and stop watching then” and which was the response from a club in the north of England or maybe then I should accept the offer, “Youre so great lets see how you do it”.

I accept that I am poacher-turned-gamekeeper since I know too well that I was myself a doer of Erroneous Aikido until I had it [quite abruptly] demonstrated to me the fallacy of my self-assuredness.

@Xue Sheng, thank you also and I would not want to be misunderstood, I would have no issue with someone incorporating a non-physical aspect into their martial art; I think it is beneficial to step outside the strikes and the pins and realise how performing such actions is helping you holistically as a practitioner [my opinion only]. And but with Aikido, there is often [and I would cite the place where I am talking bout only I would not want to seem petty] often there is an equating of the ideas of Ueshiba with a softness, a stand-offishness [a femininity is a term I had used previously]. It is almost as if the Erroneous Aikidoka has a contempt for fighting and then this is perceived by doers of other arts as the Erroneous Aikidoka having a total despising for other martial arts altogether. This to me is where the sanctimoniousness comes from and it misses the point that when it comes to it, the real, proper aikidoka can stand up and use their skills to fight. I think that is a ridiculously basic notion missed by the Erroneous Aikidoka..

And yes, in the beginning I did not like being chastened when someone got hurt in training. That was never my intention though to me I got hurt BECAUSE I was trying to learn how to fight and defend myself. My dad taught me how to box and yes I wore headgear and gumshields and but at no stage was “not getting hurt” the major contributing factor in the training. Yet last class I visited one of the seniors whinged off because he had had a collision of feet [his student having accidentally stamped him when unbalanced pffft..] then the student feels guilty or incompetent or both <- this is essential practice in Erroneous Aikido and from what you say, in other arts also perhaps?

@punisher73 oh yes that is exactly right and bang on the money! I am glad you remembered that bout the Kobukan see that is a well forgotten and buried part of history and is not found anywhere in the Erroneous Aikido handbook. I am so happy you mentioned that!! Thank you I could not add to that cept to thank you again and give you lots of exclamation marks!!!!!

Jenna x

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thank you all for taking time to read my terrible ranting I am sorry and but I am grateful to you all too thank you!!

Not that I would ever rant mind you

But that was not a rant it was a rather good post IMO that summed up your frustration rather well.

@Xue Sheng, thank you also and I would not want to be misunderstood, I would have no issue with someone incorporating a non-physical aspect into their martial art; I think it is beneficial to step outside the strikes and the pins and realise how performing such actions is helping you holistically as a practitioner [my opinion only]. And but with Aikido, there is often [and I would cite the place where I am talking bout only I would not want to seem petty] often there is an equating of the ideas of Ueshiba with a softness, a stand-offishness [a femininity is a term I had used previously]. It is almost as if the Erroneous Aikidoka has a contempt for fighting and then this is perceived by doers of other arts as the Erroneous Aikidoka having a total despising for other martial arts altogether. This to me is where the sanctimoniousness comes from and it misses the point that when it comes to it, the real, proper aikidoka can stand up and use their skills to fight. I think that is a ridiculously basic notion missed by the Erroneous Aikidoka..

And yes, in the beginning I did not like being chastened when someone got hurt in training. That was never my intention though to me I got hurt BECAUSE I was trying to learn how to fight and defend myself. My dad taught me how to box and yes I wore headgear and gumshields and but at no stage was “not getting hurt” the major contributing factor in the training. Yet last class I visited one of the seniors whinged off because he had had a collision of feet [his student having accidentally stamped him when unbalanced pffft..] then the student feels guilty or incompetent or both <- this is essential practice in Erroneous Aikido and from what you say, in other arts also perhaps?

I have no problem with someone incorporating the non-physical part either. Actually it is already incorporated in many arts from Japan and China, based on the Eastern way of thinking it is intrinsic. My problem only occurs when the non-physical is stressed over the physical to the point of looking down upon the physical side of any MA or thinking that the non-physical is the superior part of any MA when it is at best equal. Taijiquan has virtually been destroyed by this attitude. I have told this story before on MT (likely to many times) about a guy I did Taiji Tuishou with many years ago that was absolutely horrible and afterwards I stated discussing the art and the martial arts of it with him to which he responded “I don’t DO martial arts!!!! I DO taiji” and stormed out in an arrogant huff.

So Aikido is not alone in this and many MA styles and stylists do not train them like they are supposed to because they hurt and they don’t want to get hurt. And in some cases it is a legitimate concern since we all have jobs we need to show up at and a serious MA injury could cause you some major issues but…… They don’t even want to get a bruise and getting hit in the face is just not supposed to happen at all. This is why my last Wing Chun Sifu, who is very good, has no more than a dozen students and my first CMA Sifu has hundreds of students. Train Wing Chun and it hurts…train with my first Sifu and you can get any certificate you are willing to pay for and there is no pain necessary.

I once was at a martial arts demo thing and had an Aikijitsu teacher pull me out of a crowd of MAist to demonstrate a lock and takedown and when he tried, it failed. I train taiji and if you grab me I automatically relax (it is hard for me to not relax actually) and he could not do what he wanted to do if I relaxed. Relaxed or not he should have been able to do something, not just tell me I can’t relax.

And lastly my taiji Sifu has been at CMA for over 50 years and he is not a big fan of Aikido based on what little he has seen of it and the videos he has caught on the internet…. But he is damn impressed by Ueshiba Morihei and Ueshiba Morihei’s high level of skill, he also feels the same way about Judo but is rather impressed by old videos of Jigoro Kano and Kyuzo Mifune. But then he is not happy with much of the taiji he sees today either, but I am going off topic, sorry

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Jenna,

There are some people who's posts just make the world a better place and the day brighter, even when it is pouring rain outside. You are one of those people.

Great thread!

Daniel

 

[amir]

So Aikido does not work. You have seen the videos. Ain't no lies on Youtube. Put a little Tchaikovsky over the visuals and you have instant ballet de-caf and performed lovingly by men with long hair who are in touch with theirselves and by girls who are soft and sweet and imagine theirselves as rather quite dangerous underneath.. So Aikido does not work. FACT.. Oh no I am not being sarcarrrrstic, me I think Aikido does work and but I would add a big smelly caveat to that because I think it only works if you train it to work. Someone in Brian's "Real Aikido" thread mentioned the idea of Aikido being very "big" and that for me is one of the worst issues with what I would call Erroneous Aikido [it is a form very widely practiced and but sshhhh it is kind of secret like the dark arts stuff concealed and enshrouded in that nobody is allowed to speak of!] Now I am just giving my opinion here, that is all.

Q. What is Erroneous Aikido?
A. Erroneous Aikido is indeed very big, utilises half the mats in a series of seemingly random turning movements that serve only to impress people that are watching through the window and dizzy everyone else participating. Of course Erroneous Aikido is practiced in THREE dimensions and so I would see the Erroneous Aikido practitioners reach levels of airborne activity that are unconquerable to other mere ground based martial arts. Furthermore, Erroneous Aikido can have an element of martial philosophising and [scuse the word] "spirituality" and which is, I have noticed, remarkably easy for practitioners of the style to translate into sanctimoniousness and snobbery..

Q. Where does Erroneous Aikido originate from?
A. I do not know where the system of Erroneous Aikido originated from. Wikipedia says it came from a place called Ignorance, a nation formed by Major Marshall Fallacy and now no longer recognised by the international community as having any validity. Haha though you know how Wikipedia is at best!

Q. Can you recommend a good Erroneous Aikido school or club in my area?
A. Fortunately Erroneous Aikido is widespread in its outreach. Like most of you, I have practiced the style [without perhaps initially realising, such is the stealthy nature of its didactics]. With a sense of sadness I had watched many of my contemporaries subsequently leave Erroneous Aikido to pursue careers in fields as diverse as ballet and modern dance, studio stunt work and various forms of the clergy.

Q. What are the benefits of Erroneous Aikido?
A. Fortunately most practitioners of Erroneous Aikido do not realise the true error in their forms and are free to blissfully enjoy the gentle bonding with hippie friends that every peaceful martial art should.

Q. Are there drawbacks?
A. Sadly, some others might reach that point of enlightenment, perhaps upon realising that the man trying to wrest their purse or wallet from their soft, manicured hands is perversely uncompliant when the pin is deftly applied to his wrist, does not respect the circle nor even the notion of universal harmony. Sadly for those practitioners of Erroneous Aikido, their journey is over. They can progress no further in that style and are often forced into more, should we say, "barbaric" and cruel forms of martial art.

Q. What is the career progression for an awakened Erroneous Aikidoka?
A. Take heart! for the most unconvinced of Erroneous Aikido practitioners, they are the ones that perhaps during their training had had the epiphany moments, realising the potential in Aikido as Ueshiba presented his ideas. Perhaps they were sceptical of their own practices [caught the wrong end of many a tsk tsk for accidentally hurting someone in the dojo - sound familiar?]. Sceptical of Erroneous Aikido, yet finding a core and seeds of a potent martial art within their style. For these pracitioners, they will not leave for other shores where the natives disavow the flowing hakama and jump on each other, potentially HURTING their training partners, and calling it a martial discipline [Philistines!] These practitioners will take the good core from their Erroneous Aikido and they will make it grow into something altogether more practical; something closer to the original idea; something that sloughs off the nonsense, limp-wristed Erroneous Aikido pedagogies. Then THESE become the Aikidoka that are fit to call themselves.

Jenna x

Coming from Korindo Aikido, which is normally noted for its small circles of movement and practicality. You can guess my opinion on the big circles in most situations (every rule has execeptions).


On the other hand, because I come from a differnt style, much much smaller in size. I dare not call the larger styles "Erroneous".

Amir

 

[Dan Anderson]

My 2 cents worth. The evolution of Erroneous or Big Aikido, I believe, is as follows.

If you read anything about the history of O-Sensei you'll know he was a "rough neck 'n' thug." This is not an insult but an assessment and compliment. O-Sensei's upbringing, martial arts wise, made him into real deal. Also, at 5 feet tall and two hundred pounds and in-shape, he was no one to mess with. Take a look at the demo photos of his 1936 (?) book. His throws, takedwons and locks were usually preceded by a punch to the face or body.

Fast forward a number of years and you get his religeous epiphany. This combined with his continued progress in skill turns his aikido into an effortless, flowing type of art. From my observation over the past 43 years with many masters of different arts is that their personal art becomes smaller, the angles tighter, the alignments more fine tuned so that it appears that they aren't doing much of anything but boy, does it hurt! The senior students take the small actions and either mimic them without going through the experience necessary to make them effective or turn them into larger actions in order to try to figure out what the hell their teacher is doing.

This is the art which has been taught over the years. The only problem with it that what is being taught (from my admittedly small experience with aikido) is the end result without having gone through the preceding steps - the rough and tumble daitoryu aikijutsu of Sokaku Takeda (or any other like kind, real deal art).

Hmmm, it looks like this turned into 5 cents.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[bluekey88]

You see this with the various schools of aikido. Those headed by students who wroked with and seperated from ueshiba sesei in the early years tend to be "rougher" than those that worked with ueshiba sensei in his later years.

I, interestingly enough, am a former Aikidoka who was taught a blend of erroneous and true Aikido. A lot of what we did worked, but (as is often the criticism of Aikido), was trained poorly. Sometimes, i would go to my sensei with a question about how to deal with something. for example, kicks, didn;t do much against them. She went on to emonstrate several applications to common kicks. However, in dealing jabs and barrages of punches, her things was to just bat them away and play defense. A tactic that one cannot maintain indefintiely without tkaing the intiiative at some point (we needed to work more on atemi in my estimation).

Eventually, I was forced to leave aikido and I studied around...tried to come back to aikido only to be confronted with a situation where I saw a high ranking, hihgly skilled, famous instructor BS his way through a demonstration. I quit training that day.

However, I've found more and more that apply the principles i learned all those years ago in the practice of my current arts. My amrtial arts are stronger for my Aikido experience. I suppose it's not Aikido...but it's owkring for me. Go figure.

Peace,
Erik

 

[dancingalone]

This is an interesting discussion. Not too much I can add except by noting that I am an aikido student... and I teach Goju-ryu karate-do. In the aikido class I attend, the teacher freely acknowledges that the techniques she teaches are more likely to be executed successfully with atemi included. From time to time, she requests me to give a seminar on correct striking principles, though I only get a few takers.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well whenever I hear the accusation that Aikido doesn't work, my first response is "Which Aikido?"

The Hombu style which I guess is headed up By Uyeshiba's son? The freaky Omoto-kyo cultish religion type? Yoshinkan? Yoseikan? Nihon Goshin? Tomiki-Ryu?

Does no one remember that when Uyeshiba had taught his main few disciples all he had, that he then told them each to go "find their own Aikido?"

"Oh, but there's an overreliance on cooperative partners" Well find one of the Pre-epiphany schools.

"But you don't get to pressure test because there's no competitive or randori aspect" No? Go check out Tomiki-Ryu which DOES have randori.

If you find yourself curious about Aikido's principles of efficiency--go try it. If you like it but you know what's missing, go add it. What's hard?

Remember--Judo has a pretty good reputation in MMA circles who are ostensibly a hard assed bunch. And Judo's founder, Jigoro Kano, back in the way back when before all this splintering occurred, Went and saw Uyeshiba give a demonstration of Aikido( though I'm unclear if this is what he called it by this time), approached Uyeshiba afterward, and said to him "This is what I was trying to do ".

 

[K-man]

Sometimes, I would go to my sensei with a question about how to deal with something, for example, kicks, didn't do much against them. She went on to demonstrate several applications to common kicks. However, in dealing jabs and barrages of punches, her things was to just bat them away and play defense. A tactic that one cannot maintain indefintiely without taking the initiative at some point (we needed to work more on atemi in my estimation).

That sort of defence will not work with any style. Eventually something will get through and you will go down. The biggest problem is exhaustion. It takes more energy to defend than to attack and you also give up the initiative. Aikido teaches, and it applies to any other discipline although I never saw it formally taught in Goju, is evade the attack, enter with irimi, strike with kokyu. Works for me. :asian:

 

[amir]

My 2 cents worth. The evolution of Erroneous or Big Aikido, I believe, is as follows.

If you read anything about the history of O-Sensei you'll know he was a "rough neck 'n' thug." This is not an insult but an assessment and compliment. O-Sensei's upbringing, martial arts wise, made him into real deal. Also, at 5 feet tall and two hundred pounds and in-shape, he was no one to mess with. Take a look at the demo photos of his 1936 (?) book. His throws, takedwons and locks were usually preceded by a punch to the face or body.

Fast forward a number of years and you get his religeous epiphany. This combined with his continued progress in skill turns his aikido into an effortless, flowing type of art. From my observation over the past 43 years with many masters of different arts is that their personal art becomes smaller, the angles tighter, the alignments more fine tuned so that it appears that they aren't doing much of anything but boy, does it hurt! The senior students take the small actions and either mimic them without going through the experience necessary to make them effective or turn them into larger actions in order to try to figure out what the hell their teacher is doing.

...

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan

Your post apears to make sense and is logical, but Ueshiba history is very well recorded. His "religeous epiphany" occured between 1920 and 1929 and not after 1940.


Amir

 

[amir]

That sort of defence will not work with any style. Eventually something will get through and you will go down. The biggest problem is exhaustion. It takes more energy to defend than to attack and you also give up the initiative. Aikido teaches, and it applies to any other discipline although I never saw it formally taught in Goju, is evade the attack, enter with irimi, strike with kokyu. Works for me. :asian:

Normally, I agree with you. I would not recommend anyone to just defend without taking the initiative as a tactics to follow. And an Aikidoka should be able to identify a suki and irimi, or to create some Kuzushi and utilize it directly.

Just remember reality is stranger then anything. I recall the story of another practitioner of our dojo who actually did just that - evaded his neighbor who attacked him with rage, for something like 5 minutes. As he described it, he hardly broke any sweat, while the attacker lost his breath and gave up from exhaustion. Neither was young at the time (the practitioner only started to train post his 40's).
Apparently, in that particular case, the practitioner felt he is not willing to cause damage (for obvious reasons), and on the other hand, he found out he was not able to restrain the attacker otherwise. Or perhaps, he was not good enough.

Amir

 

[bluekey88]

That sort of defence will not work with any style. Eventually something will get through and you will go down. The biggest problem is exhaustion. It takes more energy to defend than to attack and you also give up the initiative. Aikido teaches, and it applies to any other discipline although I never saw it formally taught in Goju, is evade the attack, enter with irimi, strike with kokyu. Works for me. :asian:

Exactly. Of course, as a young, bright-eyed student....I didn't know that at the time. I learned the hard way that a patient opponnent will slowly pick you apart. You either have to bait you oppoennet into over-committing to an attack, or you need to create an opportunity to take the initaitve, break their balance/structure, then the fight is yours.

Like I said, my study of other arts has made what I leanredin Aikido useful. I can strike, I can move, I can create the opportunities...and then i can get a lock or throw, etc. I KNOW Aikido works...it just needs to be trained correctly with intent. Oncwe you can do that...THEN you can be nice.

Peace,
Erik

 

[K-man]

Normally, I agree with you. I would not recommend anyone to just defend without taking the initiative as a tactics to follow. And an Aikidoka should be able to identify a suki and irimi, or to create some Kuzushi and utilize it directly.

Just remember reality is stranger then anything. I recall the story of another practitioner of our dojo who actually did just that - evaded his neighbor who attacked him with rage, for something like 5 minutes. As he described it, he hardly broke any sweat, while the attacker lost his breath and gave up from exhaustion. Neither was young at the time (the practitioner only started to train post his 40's).
Apparently, in that particular case, the practitioner felt he is not willing to cause damage (for obvious reasons), and on the other hand, he found out he was not able to restrain the attacker otherwise. Or perhaps, he was not good enough.

Amir

Mind you, it does nothing for neighbourly relations to apply your best MA technique and smack thy neighbour on the nose. In this situation, where the practitioner was not feeling under threat, he probably undertook the best course of action.
As to the age issue, be aware that some of us were about 20 years older than those young fellas when we started aikido!! :asian:

 

[amir]

Mind you, it does nothing for neighbourly relations to apply your best MA technique and smack thy neighbour on the nose. In this situation, where the practitioner was not feeling under threat, he probably undertook the best course of action.

Agree
But this was exactly my point in bringing this case forward.
Reality actually creates situations in which the good solution would apear improbable while giving advice.
I do not recomend relaying only on defensive movement. But, in this example, it had actually provided the best possible solution.

As to the age issue, be aware that some of us were about 20 years older than those young fellas when we started aikido!! :asian:

:asian:

 

[theletch1]

The last several posts bring to mind a thought... at what point in the defensive technique of aikido does the technique go from purely defensive to either offensive or brutally stopping the attacker. It seems that many folks think of a "purely defensive" technique as being one that only allows evasion of the blow or stopping the attack without stopping the attacker. The locks of aikido, when taken to their extreme, are indeed defensive techniques but can be used to stop the attacker by destroying the weapon being used. The throws of aikido often end with the back of the head smacking the ground or the face being firmly planted into the pavement. Perhaps it's just the idea that many folks have that defensive means weak... who knows.

 

[Yari]

The last several posts bring to mind a thought... at what point in the defensive technique of aikido does the technique go from purely defensive to either offensive or brutally stopping the attacker. It seems that many folks think of a "purely defensive" technique as being one that only allows evasion of the blow or stopping the attack without stopping the attacker. The locks of aikido, when taken to their extreme, are indeed defensive techniques but can be used to stop the attacker by destroying the weapon being used. The throws of aikido often end with the back of the head smacking the ground or the face being firmly planted into the pavement. Perhaps it's just the idea that many folks have that defensive means weak... who knows.

Your on to something very important here. I bellive since you don't know when your attacker is "finished" you'll never know for sure that the attack is over. and giving the attacker a second chance (knowing know that he knows you can defend yourself), is going to be hard.

So it mght be true that defending the initial attack can stop THAT attack, but the knowledge balance and escalation will change with each second you wait "for the next attack".

But by placing the attacker into a position (perferably physical), that can let him not attack will ensure that your defence had the wanted effect.

I there belive that an aikido techique is not only the irimi and atemi, but all the way through (what ever it is/takes). And this can make Aikido a very nasty style to be confronted with.

/Yari