Erle Montaigue and Tai Chi

[bigfootsquatch]

I know Erle has been discussed some here, but I haven't found a definitive answer for his yang cheng fu and yang lu chan forms.

He claims his yang cheng fu form is the version that chen wei ming taught. Can anyone confirm this?

Do you think that his YLC form is a knock off of Chen Pan Ling's form, or is it his own creation, or the real thing?

Anything about Erle's credibility is welcome.

Thanks!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I will have to get back to you on that. Possibly someone else will be able to answer your question before I do.

It is my understanding that Erle has skill but I have my doubts about a direct line to Luchan, but I could be wrong.

The only thing I am 100% certain of is that Erle did not learn it form Luchan.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I found a link that is from Erle http://homepage.ntlworld.com/b.udall/taiji_history.htm and he put down his lineage but I think he may be missing a step in the Chengfu line. I am not aware that Shou Zhong ever taught any westerners and never taught outside of Nanjing, Kowloon and Hong Kong, but I could be wrong here. And if it is Shou Zhong he has the years of his birth and death wrong, it is 1911 - 1986 not 1909-1985.

Also as far as I know Erle claims not to be able to read or speak Chinese and I do not think Shou Zhong spoke anything but Chinese.

Other than that I got these, you be the judge

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/23/1611.html?1068137553

Chang Yiu-Chun
http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/23/1611.html?1068137553

http://www.taichiaustralia.com/Deadly and Deceptive Hands.htm

Note on his lineage on the web

Yang Kin-hou 1839-1917 (Guessing he means Yang Yu aka Yang Ban Hou actual birth - death 1837 - 1892)

Yang Sau-chung 1909-1985 (guessing here he means Yang Zhen Ming aka Shou Zhong actual birth - death 1911 - 1986)

 

[bigfootsquatch]

His "resume" sounds a little too good to be true. That's for sure, but what do you think of the actual forms he does. Is his Yang Cheng Fu form any good? What about his "yang lu chan" form? I can usually spot the phonies, but his is so different...that I'm not sure whether he really knows his stuff, or is just a complete fraud!

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Here is Master Erle Montaigue acknowledging that his form and Chen Pan Ling's form are essentially the same.


http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Articles/old_yang.htm

 

[Xue Sheng]

His "resume" sounds a little too good to be true. That's for sure, but what do you think of the actual forms he does. Is his Yang Cheng Fu form any good? What about his "yang lu chan" form? I can usually spot the phonies, but his is so different...that I'm not sure whether he really knows his stuff, or is just a complete fraud!

I do not believe I have ever seen Erle's Yang style either the alleged Luchan or alleged Chengfu. But I would be interested in seeing it, particularly the Luchan stuff. Is there a link to a video somewhere?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Here is Master Erle Montaigue acknowledging that his form and Chen Pan Ling's form are essentially the same.


http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Articles/old_yang.htm

Interesting

Chen Pan Ling
http://www.chenpanling.com/CPL.htm

Chen Pan Ling apparently learned Taiji fron "Li Tsun I" and "Liu Tsai-Chen"
http://www.chenpanling.com/systems.htm

 

[Steel Tiger]

I did a seminar with him in the early '90s about fa ching and dim mak in the internal Chinese arts. He certainly seemed to have a wealth of knowledge, much of which I have since confirmed as legitimate.

I don't know much about his Taiji, but he did demonstrate his Bagua form for us and it was pretty much classical Bagua. My teacher and I were both a little put out by his rather brusque dismissal of the animal-form baguas, one of which we practice.

Credibility? I don't know. Some swear by him, others consider him suspect. His name tends to make one lean toward suspicion. The Earl of Montaigue is a famous personage from British history. I have a feeling that Earle may also have done some professional wrestling down here is Australia.

 

[bigfootsquatch]

I do not believe I have ever seen Erle's Yang style either the alleged Luchan or alleged Chengfu. But I would be interested in seeing it, particularly the Luchan stuff. Is there a link to a video somewhere?

There are instructional videos on his site for the full Cheng Fu form, and the 1st section of Lu Chan. He also had ebooks for the full Luchan form. Now they are hardback only, but if you want the ebooks then contact me on
AIM: brian24791
MSN:[email protected]
(the owner of the ebook has full permission to distribute them so dont worry about copyright)

or send me a PM

For the instructional videos:
http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Books.html

As for actual demos, there isnt a demo of him doing the yang cheng fu form that I know of
other than a small clip here

# which is suppose to be his small frame version, not the version he teaches in the instructional above.

There is a video demo of him doing the 1st 3rd and last 3rd of his Yang Lu Chan form.

1st 3rd-

They are done at a "higher level" than the instructional video shows though.

The final 3rd I will have to send to you. It's no longer up.

Tell me what you think!
Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is what I found, but I have not had time to watch them.

Tai CHi: Old Yang Style: Part 1: Learn for Free: Montaigue

Part 2

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-5a0Y0FAzQ&mode=related&search=

Part 4

I don't know about the validity but his Chinese pronunciations are horrible

 

[bigfootsquatch]

Yeah those the are the same videos found on his site for the 1st 3rd of his yang lu chan form. You should be able to find whe whole Yang Cheng Fu form of his on youtube also.

 

[East Winds]

How could you have any belief in a man who does a character assasination of Yang Cheng Fu http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Articles/demise.html and but continues to teach Cheng Fu's form for money!!!! :erg:

If Mr. Monatgue considers that Yang Cheng Fu destroyed Tai Chi it illustrates to me at least that he has no understanding whatever of Cheng Fu's form.

Very best wishes

 

[oxy]

How could you have any belief in a man who does a character assasination of Yang Cheng Fu http://www.taiji-qigong.co.uk/Articles/demise.html and but continues to teach Cheng Fu's form for money!!!! :erg:

Well, I would start judging him by the quality of his Taiji's combat and whatever effectiveness.

Unlike what most people believe, most people are simply not good enough to judge a person by what they say. Basically, being a hypocrite does not exclude oneself from being able to excel at something (or at least be good at it).

Obviously, I don't know enough about the specifics of Taiji to judge how good Erle's is, but I still think it's wise to judge a person's knowledge of Taiji by... their knowledge of Taiji. And I'm sure everyone will agree with me that it's not possible to do that when a single statement, no matter how ill-founded, cannot display a person's whole understanding.

What's that called when a person is demonised by one little statement? I think it's called "politics".

If Mr. Monatgue considers that Yang Cheng Fu destroyed Tai Chi it illustrates to me at least that he has no understanding whatever of Cheng Fu's form.

But he has high regards for Yang Luchan's forms. Surely a man has a right to prefer a predecessor's version of the art? Certainly, the arguments he puts up in favour of Luchan's forms can quickly devolve to "more older/pristine/original" is better (determined by the level of skill in the rebuttals to his points), but is anyone here ready to say that Chengfu's version and not Luchan's is the absolute best (of Yang Taiji at least)?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, I would start judging him by the quality of his Taiji's combat and whatever effectiveness

Actually Erle did pretty much attack Chengfu based on what he learned from teachers he claims to have trained with that I am not entirely sure he trained with. And what he too had heard

Like I said it is my understanding Erle has skill but I am not sure I believe all of his claims and although in his article about Chengfu there are some point I agree with, I am not sure that Erle is not putting himself in a position of judging someone else based on what he has heard.

By Erle's own admission he cannot read or speak Chinese so he may be pretty much basing it on what he heard. But then he could be comparing it to his alleged Luchan form which in reality, if it is from Luchan, is actually from a student of Shouhou and Shouhou was Luchan's grandson.

EDIT

My only question here now is WHY IS EVERYBODY SO DARN AFRAID OF SHOUHOU???

Even the Yang family only recently admitted that a lineage exists where prior they claimed it did not.

I mean he was an incredibly tough teacher and only had a few students and allegedly killed one he was training because he did not hold back but I mean the guy is dead now how scary can he be.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

...The only thing I am 100% certain of is that Erle did not learn it form Luchan.

My eyes must be going, I could have sworn I saw him at class! :ultracool

 

[Xue Sheng]

My eyes must be going, I could have sworn I saw him at class! :ultracool

:lfao:


and I thought I was old.

 

[East Winds]

Oxy,

Thanks for the reply. “Well, I would start judging him by the quality of his Taiji’s combat and whatever effectiveness” Yes, that would be nice. Where can I see such combat effectiveness out with his videos of working with compliant students?

“Unlike what most people believe, most people are simply not good enough to judge a person by what they say. Basically being a hypocrite does not exclude oneself from being able to excel at something (or at least be good at it)” I’m sorry I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.

“Obviously, I don’t know enough about the specifics of Taiji to judge how good Erle is…..” But you obviously feel qualified to comment anyway. I usually find that if I don’t know about a subject it is better not to say anything.

“What’s that called when a person is demonised by one little statement? I think it’s called “Politics”. No it isn’t. It’s called putting your head above the parapet and making statements on a public site to which others can make contrary statements. It’s called democracy!!

I doubt if anyone (even Mr. Montague) knows Lu Chan’s form. Certainly the current Yang family don’t . It was he (Lu Chan) who began to “hide” the overt Fajing of the Chen form. Yang Cheng fu merely continued the process.. “Surely a man has a right to prefer a predecessor’s version of the art?” Certainly. But when the claims are made of a lineage which cannot be verified from a disciple who cannot be traced, then how does one know that the form is authentic? Do we just blindly believe and take Erle’s word for it. Is it not surprising that this “Master” that Erle found was the only one who knew the Lu Chan form and that no other Lu Chan disciple survived to continue to pass on the form? You don’t think that this was extremely fortuitous? “But is anyone here ready to say that Cheng Fu’s version and not Lu Chan’s is the absolute best (of yang Taiji at least)? Let me put it this way. The form of Yang Cheng-fu as transmitted by Yang Shou Zhong, Chen Wei Ming, Tung Ying Cheih, Yang Zhen Ji, and Yang Zhen Duo is infinitely better than the form that Erle Montaigue is claiming to be Lu Chan’s, at least on the videos I have seen of him.


Finally I think it it very stange to say the least, that if he has such a low opinion of the Yang Cheng fu form, why would he (1) Continue to teach this form and issue videos of it, and (2) Why would he issue a whole series of videos called "T'ai Chi Intricacies : Yang Cheng-fu Form"? Let me quote from the video blurb "In this video, Erle Montaigue teaches the very highest level of T'ai Chi" and this is the form formulated by a man who destoyed Tai Chi?


I look forward to your constructive comments


Very Best wishes

 

[dmax999]

He just strikes me with too many of those "concidences" that make him the only legitimate teacher. He learned from a line that can't be traced. He is the only one teaching the "real stuff". He teaches the highest level of material. Etc. All warning signs of a bad teacher (Not necessaraly a bad one, just warning signs)

I have observed that those who truly are the absolute best in their style don't constantly go around bragging about their lineage all that much. They stand on their own merrit and don't have to rely on their teachers to give them credibility.

Examples (Style doen't really matter)-
Yip Man
William CC Chen
Leung Shum
The Gracies

He has yet to establish himself as a leader without having to rely on a questionable background and as East Winds points out changing stories.

 

[oxy]

Oxy,

Thanks for the reply. “Well, I would start judging him by the quality of his Taiji’s combat and whatever effectiveness” Yes, that would be nice. Where can I see such combat effectiveness out with his videos of working with compliant students?

That's not my problem. My point is that you cannot judge a person's ability from their words. Basically, with the way you chose to rebut my point, you are basically seeking permission to have a default opinion in the absence of evidence.

Imagine that in court. A person is convicted by default because there was no other evidence.

That's justice...

As Carl Sagan once said: "It is alright to say that we do not yet know"; or something like that.

“Obviously, I don’t know enough about the specifics of Taiji to judge how good Erle is…..” But you obviously feel qualified to comment anyway. I usually find that if I don’t know about a subject it is better not to say anything.

You know, the more I discuss with you, the more I expect you to do certain things. Do you notice how you suddenly CUT OFF THE REST OF MY POINT? That's called quote mining. Do you realise that my comment about "the specifics of Taiji" does not in anyway invalidate the following from me:

but I still think it's wise to judge a person's knowledge of Taiji by... their knowledge of Taiji. And I'm sure everyone will agree with me that it's not possible to do that when a single statement, no matter how ill-founded, cannot display a person's whole understanding.

Does my inexperience at Taiji SUDDENLY invalidate the logically sound point that the only way to judge whether someone is good at something is to test if they are good at something and not if they say what you want to hear (or its converse)?

If I said this instead:

Obviously, I don’t know enough about the specifics of Taiji to judge how good Erle is, but I think Erle's Taiji must have substance to it

...or something along these lines, then your rebuttal would actually make sense. The fact that your rebuttal would NOT make any sense had you quoted me HONESTLY only goes to show you did take me out of context.

You are right that people should not say anything about something they do not know as well. That is why my main point was not about Taiji, but about you making strawman arguments and ad hominem arguments (again).

The honorable thing to do is to admit that you deliberately took my comments out of context, but I don't expect someone like you to...

“What’s that called when a person is demonised by one little statement? I think it’s called “Politics”. No it isn’t. It’s called putting your head above the parapet and making statements on a public site to which others can make contrary statements. It’s called democracy!!

Your effort to put spin on your oversight only serves to show that you are more of a politician than a logical person. Martial arts has no time to waste on politics. And when has martial arts been a democracy?

I doubt if anyone (even Mr. Montague) knows Lu Chan’s form. Certainly the current Yang family don’t . It was he (Lu Chan) who began to “hide” the overt Fajing of the Chen form. Yang Cheng fu merely continued the process..

That's irrelevant as far as Erle's own ability is concerned. ie, unless you want to continue your desire to convict a person by default in the absence of evidence...

“Surely a man has a right to prefer a predecessor’s version of the art?” Certainly. But when the claims are made of a lineage which cannot be verified from a disciple who cannot be traced, then how does one know that the form is authentic? Do we just blindly believe and take Erle’s word for it. Is it not surprising that this “Master” that Erle found was the only one who knew the Lu Chan form and that no other Lu Chan disciple survived to continue to pass on the form? You don’t think that this was extremely fortuitous? “But is anyone here ready to say that Cheng Fu’s version and not Lu Chan’s is the absolute best (of yang Taiji at least)? Let me put it this way. The form of Yang Cheng-fu as transmitted by Yang Shou Zhong, Chen Wei Ming, Tung Ying Cheih, Yang Zhen Ji, and Yang Zhen Duo is infinitely better than the form that Erle Montaigue is claiming to be Lu Chan’s, at least on the videos I have seen of him.

I'm not here to argue about the history of Taiji or the politics of the Yang style.

My whole post was, and continues to be, about your incorrect insinuation that Erle's attack on Yang Chengfu is in any way indicative of Erle's knowledge.

This is not a defence of Erle's behaviour in character assassination (as you call it). That behaviour is absolutely unneeded to make an argument, unless Yang Chengfu did it for money (which I am sure he did not (not sarcasm)).

Finally I think it it very stange to say the least, that if he has such a low opinion of the Yang Cheng fu form, why would he (1) Continue to teach this form and issue videos of it, and (2) Why would he issue a whole series of videos called "T'ai Chi Intricacies : Yang Cheng-fu Form"? Let me quote from the video blurb "In this video, Erle Montaigue teaches the very highest level of T'ai Chi" and this is the form formulated by a man who destoyed Tai Chi?

I don't really care about that.

I said this before.

Being a hypocrite does not preclude someone from being wrong.

I was never defending Erle, nor was I defending his position. If what you say is true, I would be right after you in the line of people to call him a hypocrite. His logically inept arguments would get similar attention from me.

Once again, you misinterpret my comment about the unsound implications of Erle's credibility as a defence of Erle completely which you further misinterpret as an attack on Taiji itself.

If you want to call Erle an *******, fine. If you want to call him a hypocrite, fine. None of those qualities, no matter how many strawmen you use, does not preclude anyone from being good at something.

Once again, when I get into a discussion with you, I always end up being attacked (ad hominem, mostly). When will you stop putting dishonest argument tactics in place of arguments?

 

[oxy]

Actually Erle did pretty much attack Chengfu based on what he learned from teachers he claims to have trained with that I am not entirely sure he trained with. And what he too had heard

Like I said it is my understanding Erle has skill but I am not sure I believe all of his claims and although in his article about Chengfu there are some point I agree with, I am not sure that Erle is not putting himself in a position of judging someone else based on what he has heard.

I agree. Like I said to EastWinds, Erle's own points does not really compute. I still must repeat, though, that someone's hypocrisy does not preclude them from being good. Conversely, someone being good does not preclude their comments from being completely wrong or illogical.

By Erle's own admission he cannot read or speak Chinese so he may be pretty much basing it on what he heard. But then he could be comparing it to his alleged Luchan form which in reality, if it is from Luchan, is actually from a student of Shouhou and Shouhou was Luchan's grandson.

Isn't that always the way with those who perceive themselves to be associated with the One True Whatever. I believe that logical fallacy is called "No True Scotsman", coined by Anthony Flew.

My only question here now is WHY IS EVERYBODY SO DARN AFRAID OF SHOUHOU???

Even the Yang family only recently admitted that a lineage exists where prior they claimed it did not.

I mean he was an incredibly tough teacher and only had a few students and allegedly killed one he was training because he did not hold back but I mean the guy is dead now how scary can he be.

I would be scared of anyone who could be not-there one second and there the next...