Employee fatally shot at FM 1960 restaurant

MA-Caver

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Pretty sad... guess they should've busted out their UZIs from under the counter and sprayed those guys to pieces huh?
 

Andy Moynihan

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http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6228277.html

"As a restaurant employee and an assistant manager attempted to collect cash for the men, one of the robbers shot the employee, authorities said. "

You never know if the robbers want just the cash or your life.

Deaf

I keep trying to tell people, often to no avail, that this is a purer, more virulent strain of monster coming down the pike nowadays, and this is Precisely why it is vital to understand, this generation of thugs is different, the rules have changed and you now must ALWAYS ASSUME they mean to kill you and act appropriately.

They'll do you just 'cause they suddenly may want to, compliance or not. You MUST ALWAYS ASSUME this.

If you're not prepared to fight in the given situation, escape, but commit to doing ANYTHING but submitting, PLEASE.

Once again, i quote the master:

"We continue to be exasperated by the view, apparently gaining momentum in certain circles, that armed robbery is okay as long as nobody gets hurt! The proper solution to armed robbery is a dead robber, on the scene."--Jeff Cooper
 
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arnisador

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"We continue to be exasperated by the view, apparently gaining momentum in certain circles, that armed robbery is okay as long as nobody gets hurt! The proper solution to armed robbery is a dead robber, on the scene."--Jeff Cooper

Sarcasm neither necessary nor appreciated.

Well, the point is that the proposed solution is not always practical. (I don't disagree that it's generally desirable.) Given that, these people need more practical advice.

What should these people have done once the man's intentions became clear:

Intruder beats, robs elderly couple in Eastside home

Police say man forced his way into home on Eastside; elderly residents hospitalized

A 74-year-old woman and her husband were in Methodist Hospital on Friday after she tried to fight off an intruder who beat and robbed the couple in their Eastside home.

[...]
Blanchard gave him her purse and told the man there was no jewelry in the home. The man began punching her in the face, police said.
"We don't have any jewelry -- we're simple people," Ambegia, 42, said. "My dad came in to help her; he's in a wheelchair, and (the man) just whaled on him."


Louis Blanchard, 80, has one leg and uses a wheelchair.


Both victims suffered broken noses. Louis Blanchard had a deep cut over his right eye and swelling so severe that he could not open his left eye. Freda Blanchard suffered swelling to her face and eyes.

So, while your solution seems appropriate in this situation, arriving at it poses a problem. You can't always fight.
 

Andy Moynihan

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Well, the point is that the proposed solution is not always practical. (I don't disagree that it's generally desirable.) Given that, these people need more practical advice.

What should these people have done once the man's intentions became clear:

Fight. Escape. Yell for help. Anything but just lie there and comply. You MUST ALWAYS ASSUME it's a matter of life.

Yes, sometimes it's a no-win, but the better plan you have in place the better your odds.

So, while your solution seems appropriate in this situation, arriving at it poses a problem. You can't always fight.

Just because I cannot do everything, is no excuse for me to refuse to do something I CAN do.

You can always fight, you just can't always defeat the attack. But I'll feel a lot better if i at least died TRYING.

WTF--you gotta die of something, it might as well be a death worth dying, resisting evil and maybe even buying an innocent time to run, or counter, and live.
 
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MJS

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Pretty sad... guess they should've busted out their UZIs from under the counter and sprayed those guys to pieces huh?

Actually, if someone did have a weapon or did have the chance to act, I'd say yes, do it! Not sure of the point you're trying to make with this though. Of course, if I had to wager a guess, judging by other posts in that other thread, you would go with the comply and nobody will get hurt line of thinking? See, as I said in another post, the slightest thing could set these guys off. Remember that Subway clip that was posted? Remember that clerk, and how slow they moved, almost as if he was more interested in finishing the sandwich first. See, its stuff like that, that'll piss the bad guy off.

I still stand by my thoughts that we stand a good chance of getting hurt. If I'm going to die, I may as well die with a fight.
 

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I will not go into the night without a fight. These people now a days don't give a flying rats butt about the rest of humanity anymore. They would rather kill you then look at you. Only sheep believe to be passive and you will be ok.

I don't care if I'm armed or not, I'll find something to fight with, anything and everything is a weapon and it's worth a shot, then to stand by and hope they won't kill me or one of my family out of the goodness of their hearts.

I've seen to much of humanities crap side to think that kindness will win out in situations like this or submissiveness will prevail, it won't in most case.
 

Brian King

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Arnisador wrote:

What should these people have done once the man's intentions became clear:

The sick injured and elderly have always been targeted by criminals. Whether identity thefts, swindles or violence it is something that happens and should be a consideration of both the elderly and the familys friends and neighbors of the elderly. In this particular case had the old man been armed with more than his wheelchair and tough heart and willing to use force he might have been better able to help defend his wife. If he had the phone number of a couple of neighbors who could have called for help while coming to the rescue with an armed or at least superiority in numbers. A large dog could have rendered assistance distraction and perhaps deterrence. But all that requires prior planning and prior acceptance of the costs and needs to do what may be necessary.

In this case they were unarmed, surprised and alone. They were likely targeted because they were a soft target and they reacted like a soft target. They did well in not only fighting back as best as they were able but more importantly surviving. I hope that they not only survived physically but spiritually as well. Time will tell on that. An improvised weapon or two may have helped but they did fight back and they did survive and that is a win. It cannot be said that their fighting back reduced the beating that they had to take, but based on other home invasions I have read about, the victims are often taken into a back room (so that their screams cannot be heard from the street) and bound. They are often tortured to both force them to reveal the location of their treasure, their pin and account numbers and often for the pleasure of their captors/tormentors. In this case the fight was on right at the front door, they were not tired up and tortured at the criminals leisure. The bad guy had to fight with two yelling resisting adults while worrying that the front door may have been open to the street and any that any neighbor may at any moment step up to the door or could even at that second is calling for police. Time was on the side of the elders and the longer and the louder they resisted the more advantage they achieved. Elderly does not have to mean helpless, one leg and wheelchair bound does not have to mean helpless. Often victims of crimes become double victims, after the crime they become afraid and paranoid and adjust their lives around the fear living in smaller and smaller boxes afraid to do anything that might again put them in the helpless position of being a victim. I hope that this couple does not become the elderly victim living behind triple locked doors, afraid at every noise and paranoid of the life around them but rather see that they did and were able to fight back, they are not victims but are survivors and should the situation again arise that they will be even better able and more practiced to successfully resist.

MA-Caver wrote:

Sincere apologies to everyone

Good for you sir it is a class act.

I must state that I am also of mind not to go down without fighting... but I won't go down as a fool either.

Which brings up the important considerations of timing and inertia.


Regards
Brian King
 

Thesemindz

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My wife has no formal self defense training. Before I met her, she was about as naive about self defense as you could be. It wasn't that she was stupid. She just wasn't educated in violence. She lived with two other cute young college girls in a dangerous neighborhood because the rent was cheap. They didn't lock their doors at night. They didn't have emergency plans. They didn't even realize that the house across the street with the electric fence, three pitbulls, covered windows, and a lookout on the porch at all times was a drug den. It wasn't that they were dumb. They just didn't understand that three cute young college girls in that kind of neighborhood might as well be a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. They just didn't know any better.

Since I've met her that has changed. I have gone out of my way to impart some amount of self defense knowledge to her so that she can better understand the reality of violence. We have contingency plans for fire and tornadoes, why wouldn't we have one for home invasion? In fact, we have three for home invasion depending on where we are in the house, how many assailants are involved, and what tools we have at hand. She knows where the guns are, how to use them, and what to do in case of emergencies.

Most importantly to me, was that she understand that in the worst case scenario, there is no surrender. No matter the odds, no matter what they promise you, it is to the death. Period. It must be. There is no compromise. It isn't a game. It's for keeps. Anyone who would enter an occupied private residence, especially if they know the tenants are inside, will do violence. Not might. Will. I made her promise that under those circumstances, she never stops fighting.

Now, that may seem dark to some, or overly dramatic, but I take violence very seriously. I pray it never comes to that, but if it does, I pray she remembers my advice.

The answer is simple. No, old people can not win in a battle of athleticism and dexterity. But they can point and shoot a gun. That's why it's called "the great equalizer." That is what those elderly victims should have done.

Call it crass if you must, I call it practical.


-Rob
 

Andy Moynihan

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:asian: Sincere apologies to everyone and especially to Deaf the OP :asian:

I must state that I am also of mind not to go down without fighting... but I won't go down as a fool either.


You made it right, so it's all good.

Well that's the suck thing about it, is, fool or not, sometimes one goes down anyway. If my number's up, it's up and there's ****all I can do about it but drag some servants and honor guards with me into whatever comes after.

You have to look at it as realizing that what you are doing in this case is avenging your own murder.

It does remain true that you won't know what you'll do till you're in it but thats the programming I've tried to install.


If I am very lucky we'll never learn if it took.
 

Thesemindz

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It does remain true that you won't know what you'll do till you're in it but thats the programming I've tried to install.


This is an excellent point.

A friend of mine yesterday told me that if he had been on the plane on 9/11 it would have gone differently. Perhaps that's true. I think most of us, indeed most everyone, would like to think the same thing. But we weren't there, so we'll never know.

That is precisely why my family has a plan for how to react in an emergency. I can't say how I will react if armed assailants burst into my home, but I can say how I plan to react. I can say how I've trained to react.

And that's a start.


-Rob
 

Andy Moynihan

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This is an excellent point.

A friend of mine yesterday told me that if he had been on the plane on 9/11 it would have gone differently. Perhaps that's true. I think most of us, indeed most everyone, would like to think the same thing. But we weren't there, so we'll never know.

That is precisely why my family has a plan for how to react in an emergency. I can't say how I will react if armed assailants burst into my home, but I can say how I plan to react. I can say how I've trained to react.

And that's a start.


-Rob

I'd say that even doing only that much puts you in the top 1/10th of 1%.
 

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I'd say numerous incidents from the Manson murders to 9/11 prove that you have to react as if the criminal/terrorist intends to murder you - and have some fun doing it.

However, not all means of self defense are violent. Consider doing these:

STOP SKIPPING JURY DUTY - All sorts of good ole boys boast about the bright ways they can get out of serving on a jury.... they will then 10 minutes later complain about how the streets are overrun with criminals. Hello?

VOTE - those judges oozing pity for the poor, poor killers got on the bench either by direct election or appointment by somebody who was elected. How about tearing yourself away from the TV and casting a vote to send them packing? Same for those legislators who write laws favoring the felons.

WRITE - the New York Post has helped drive flaky soft on crime judges from the bench. Other papers would likely be more active if they got more letters from crime victims.

FRED GOLDMAN - should be a model for every crime victim and family member. He's the father of the man OJ butchered, and he never let up on the killer. He sued in civil court and hounded OJ for payment for years. He never left OJ to claim the media spotlight to arouse sympathy.

PAROLE BOARD - many states have hearings. If you've been a victim and don't want the monster out so he can attack you again - go to the parole hearing and oppose release. Too often the only 'human' side presented is that of the supposedly contrite killer.... let them see the victims.

PREPARE - preparation is 95% of any fight, be it a court case or physical struggle for survival. This can be anything from having a cell phone to buying a dog to putting in good outdoor lights... every effort you make improves your odds of surviving or not being targeted.
 
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Deaf Smith

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The answer is simple. No, old people can not win in a battle of athleticism and dexterity. But they can point and shoot a gun. That's why it's called "the great equalizer." That is what those elderly victims should have done.-Rob

I know many a geezer (heck I'll be one soon enough... If I'm lucky) and they can most certianly learn to shoot a handgun well enough to stop an attacker at 15 feet.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6441752

The home owner who shot this invaider in his house was 69 years old.

And this is why such legislation as banning 'Saturday Night Specials' is so idiotic. Killers will aways get weapons to kill, but elderly people, especially those on fixed incomes like Social Securty (the biggest pyramid scheme of all time) just can't afford even $340 Taurus revolvers, much less a Smith&Wesson or Glock.

My mother is 77. She needed a gun to carry around the house and land recently because of several items being stolen and a weird guy showing up (for the third time) asking for gas money. So it turns out the only gun she feels she will carry all the time outside is my P3AT (bummer, it's one of my best backup guns!) If she had wanted one of my Smiths, Kimbers, Sigs, Glocks, Colts, etc... I'd say, 'no problem'. But she wanted the very little .380. So it's her's now!

But many older people are not so lucky. They don't have a gun nut for a son. So Jennings, Ravis, Lorincens, and the like are all they can afford. Or maybe a Rossi.

Deaf
 

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