Eight Key Concepts

[reeskm]

Agreed ShotoNoob, it's interesting to think about the origins. Without a doubt Hwang Kee was influenced by dojo precepts (a.k.a. dojo kun or dojang hun) used in Japan and Okinawa by all the famous Japanese style founders such as Mabuni, Miyagi, Toyama and Funakoshi.

Hwang Kee wrote many lists and precepts down, and the origins to them are varied and some not widely known. 5 of the 10 Articles of Faith come from the Korean monk Won Gwang and were given to the Hwarang as advice in how to conduct themselves. It is the same as the "Code of the Hwarang". Hwa Rang Do also uses the same code, naturally, as they style themselves 21st century Hwarang.

I've seen #8 also as "Kill with Justice and with Honour" and agree with the earlier comment that it was modified in the 70's for commercial schools because parent's might complain about their kids being taught to kill for great justice! I would add that it was also changed in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo or tournament schools where this rule does not transfer over well to point matches.

Don't confuse the 10 Articles of Faith on Mental Training with the 8 Key Concepts.

There is also Hwang Kee's 5 Moo Do Values (Moo Do for the Japanese stylists is Bu Do - Martial Way).

5 Moo Do Values:
1. Lyok Sa (History)
2. Jong Tong (Tradition)
3. Ki Kahng and Chan Kyong (Discipline and Respect)
4. Chul Hak (Philosophy)
5. Ki Sool (Technique)

Again, for reference the 8 key concepts are:
1. Yong Gi (Courage)
2. Chung Shin Tong Il (Concentration)
3. In Neh (Endurance)
4. Chung Jik (Honesty)
5. Kyum Son (Humility)
6. Him Cho Chung (Control of Power)
7. Shin Chook (Tension and Relaxation)
8. Wan Gup (Speed Control)

I'm currently researching these origins. I put it on my back burner but this thread is useful! If you have any insights share away

 

[reeskm]

There are also three principles of the Moo Duk Kwan:
1. Responsibility
2. Sincerity
3. Justice

There are also a massive amount of other "lists":
(I shamelessly copied them from here to save time)

11 POINTS OF EMPHASIS ON MENTAL TRAINING:
1. Reference for nature.
2. Physical concentration. (Ki-up)
3. Courtesy.
4. Modesty.
5. Thankfulness.
6. Self-sacrifice.
7. Cultivate courage.
8. Chastity.
9. Be strong inside and mild outside.
10. Endurance.
11. Reading ability.

10-Points of Emphasis on Physical Development:
1. Vocal exhalation, for thoractic strength (Ki-yup).
2. Focus of sight.
3.Continuous balance during movements.
4.Fexibility of the body.
5. Correct muscle tone for maximum power.
6. High and low speed techniques.
7. Exactness of techniques.
8. Adjustment for proper distance.
9. Proper breathing for endurance.
10. Conditioning of the hands and feet.

5-Requisites on Mental Training
1. Oneness with nature.
2. Complete awareness of environment.
3. Experience.
4. Conscience.
5. Culture.

Matters that Demand Special Attention While Training:
1. Purpose of training should be the enhancement of mental and physical self.
2. Sincerity is necessary.
3. Effort is necessary.
4. Constant schedule during practice.
5. Do your best when training.
6.Train in the basic spirit of Moo Duk Kwan.
7. Regularly spaced practice sessions.
8. Obey without objection the word of instructors or seniors.
9. Don't be overly ambitious.
10. Pay attention to every aspect of your training.
11. Pay attention to the order of training.
12. Get instruction step by step with new forms and techniques.
13. Try to conquer when you feel idleness.
14. Cleanliness is desired after practice is finished.

Guidance Policy of The Moo Duk Kwan:
1. Protect the art of tae kwon do with justice.
2. Cultivate character and personality through training for discipline.
3. Unity through sincerity and courtesy.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Agreed ShotoNoob, it's interesting to think about the origins. Without a doubt Hwang Kee was influenced by dojo precepts (a.k.a. dojo kun or dojang hun) used in Japan and Okinawa by all the famous Japanese style founders such as Mabuni, Miyagi, Toyama and Funakoshi....

Again, for reference the 8 key concepts are:
1. Yong Gi (Courage)
2. Chung Shin Tong Il (Concentration)
3. In Neh (Endurance)
4. Chung Jik (Honesty)
5. Kyum Son (Humility)
6. Him Cho Chung (Control of Power)
7. Shin Chook (Tension and Relaxation)
8. Wan Gup (Speed Control)

I'm currently researching these origins. I put it on my back burner but this thread is useful! If you have any insights share away

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Much of your recent post(s), thanks by the way for the specifications of these qualities, seems aimed at the 'Budo' aspect. What interests me about these 8 key concepts is that they seem to be aimed at the foundational skills rather than technical form. At another T, a Wado Ryu practitioner who had later trained Tang Soo Doo, felt that TSD was 'simple.' My feeling is that spelling out underlying qualities may seem simple, yet the skills embodied in applying these concepts is anything but simple.
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As you develop your ideas & research, please know I'm welcome to your additional posts on this material about Korean 'karates' if you will. I'm also interested in perhaps looking more at some of the Chinese styles.
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In closing, I think it very important to consider why Hwang Kee adopted certain precepts from the Japanese. I've always felt, criticisms aside, that the Japanese always thought seriously about karate, even in making some of the modern changes we might have some reservation about. I always mention I don't really care for Shotokan karate, yet I'm a big proponent of Gichin Funakoshi and later Japanese Masters who evolved Shotokan....
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Thanks again....

 

[Runs With Fire]

We have five codes
1 loyalty to country: Be loyal to the country in which you live and follow its laws
2 obedience to authority: Follow the leadership of your parents, supervisors, and lawmakers
3 honor friendships: Be loyal in thought, word, and deed to your friends
4 no retreat in battle: Never shrink from any of life’s battles. Fight the good fight
5 in fighting choose with sense and honor: Only use what is necessary to win the battle. Do not cause great harm when none is needed




We also have seven tenants
1 Integrity:Sincerity, completeness, soundness of action
2 Concentration: Close attention to all details through correct thought.
3 Perseverance: Never giving up what one has set to do. Always striving for excellence
4 Respect and Obedience: Honor everything and be obedient to those in power above you
5 Self Control: Correct in all actions, thought, word, and deed. Think before acting
6 Humility: Humbleness of mind and action--not bragging or showy
7 Indomitable Spirit: Unstoppable actions and thoughts--never wavering from the chosen path

 

[Tez3]

At another T, a Wado Ryu practitioner who had later trained Tang Soo Doo, felt that TSD was 'simple.' My feeling is that spelling out underlying qualities may seem simple, yet the skills embodied in applying these concepts is anything but simple.

The hyungs are simple compared to Wado ones, in the interest of being different from Japanese styles I believe that TSD took out much to try to make it different, however it's not, it's just simpler. Stances which are used in Wado are replaced by simpler ones, other movements are also replaced by simpler ones. If I could I would demonstrate the exact differences.
As for moral concepts instructing one on how to behave, for me they have no place in martial arts.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The hyungs are simple compared to Wado ones, in the interest of being different from Japanese styles I believe that TSD took out much to try to make it different, however it's not, it's just simpler. Stances which are used in Wado are replaced by simpler ones, other movements are also replaced by simpler ones. If I could I would demonstrate the exact differences.

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Thanks for pointing out some distinctions in the form of the curriculum.... I propose some of the changes were made to give Tang Soo Do and other Korean arts based off Japanese models, a national &cultural identity separate & distinct from Japanese.
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As for moral concepts instructing one on how to behave, for me they have no place in martial arts.

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Morality is a common thread through all styles of traditional martial arts. Why the originators all went in this direction is a broad, humanities question.
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I wouldn't say moral concepts have no place in martial arts. I would say it's both a societal & personal choice. I do agree that moral concepts and the martial capability should be addressed as separate human dimensions. The first is the conscience and the second is the tool. The first dictates behavior. The second dictates ability to function....

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't say moral concepts have no place in martial arts.

If one has morals then one has morals regardless of what one is doing, people thinking that one has to have separate morals and values because they do martial arts is redundant thinking.

 

[ShotoNoob]

If one has morals then one has morals regardless of what one is doing, people thinking that one has to have separate morals and values because they do martial arts is redundant thinking.

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Ah, I wouldn't put it in those semantics.... I think it's pretty clear that the traditional martial art founders sought to emphasize moral behavior over immoral behavior. That's why the issue is spoken of separately. To distinguish morals from lack of morals.
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By pure logic, I would say you are precisely correct.

 

[Tez3]

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Ah, I wouldn't put it in those semantics.... I think it's pretty clear that the traditional martial art founders sought to emphasize moral behavior over immoral behavior. That's why the issue is spoken of separately. To distinguish morals from lack of morals.
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By pure logic, I would say you are precisely correct.

However TMAs originate from the East where religion, ethics and morals are far more tied together in everyday life than they are in the West. Morals and ethics in martial arts would be part of the whole not separated into different boxes as life is in the West. here there's martial arts, work, religion and morality all different things, thought of as a separate thing. My faith means I'm far more akin to the East in that everything I do is bound up in how and what I do everyday. I cannot (or should not) act differently in the dojo than I can from everyday life so to have separate 'codes' or 'principles' for martial arts should be unnecessary.
The founders of Eastern styles were only reiterating what was common in everyday life for them and their countrymen, it's Westerners who have taken it and made it into something else.

 

[Oldbear343]

However TMAs originate from the East where religion, ethics and morals are far more tied together in everyday life than they are in the West. Morals and ethics in martial arts would be part of the whole not separated into different boxes as life is in the West. here there's martial arts, work, religion and morality all different things, thought of as a separate thing. My faith means I'm far more akin to the East in that everything I do is bound up in how and what I do everyday. I cannot (or should not) act differently in the dojo than I can from everyday life so to have separate 'codes' or 'principles' for martial arts should be unnecessary.
The founders of Eastern styles were only reiterating what was common in everyday life for them and their countrymen, it's Westerners who have taken it and made it into something else.

You are spot - on here ☺

 

[Oldbear343]

Having studied both TKD and Japanese arts I would say the majority of established styles/school have similar codes of ethics across the board. Ted is correct in stating that oriental culture integrates rather than splits ethics and morals into the whole culture.
However, to teach any martial art without some kind of ethical underpinning would surely be irresponsible at the very least. I have trained with many people who follow sound ethical lives, but also some who do not. So there has to be an element of guidance.
Personally, I find the common 5 strands of TKD (which are strikingly similar to the Dojo Code of many karate styles) touch me deeply:
Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverance
Self-Control
Indomitable Spirit

Just my 10-penn'orth. ...

 

[Oldbear343]

Sorry Tez, autocorrect turned you into Ted....

 

[Tez3]

Sorry Tez, autocorrect turned you into Ted....

S'okay you can call me Irene which is my name if you want!

 

[Touch Of Death]

However TMAs originate from the East where religion, ethics and morals are far more tied together in everyday life than they are in the West. Morals and ethics in martial arts would be part of the whole not separated into different boxes as life is in the West. here there's martial arts, work, religion and morality all different things, thought of as a separate thing. My faith means I'm far more akin to the East in that everything I do is bound up in how and what I do everyday. I cannot (or should not) act differently in the dojo than I can from everyday life so to have separate 'codes' or 'principles' for martial arts should be unnecessary.
The founders of Eastern styles were only reiterating what was common in everyday life for them and their countrymen, it's Westerners who have taken it and made it into something else.

Tez, I think instead of morals, a better term would be character. When you consider that anything we set out to do is a task, and it takes timing to do that task, and if you want that task done right, you seek those with higher character. What does it take to achieve higher character? Well, morals and ethics are a start.

 

[TSDTexan]

As I understand it, HWANG Kee drew some of the philosophy and traditions of Tang Soo Do from the Hwarang.

Code of Hwarang:

1. Loyalty to King and Country
2. Respect and obedience to one’s parents
3. Loyalty and trust of friends
4. Courage; never retreat in battle
5. Prudence in the use of deadly force; never kill unjustly

Also, it is why we trim our doboks in the fashion that we do. As I understand it, the Hwarang trimmed their uniforms to distinguish themselves from other warriors/soldiers. My KJN likened it to a West Point graduate vs. enlisted men.

This uniform was in a museum in Korea, Hwang Lee modeled his uniform off of it.

 

[reeskm]

The hyungs are simple compared to Wado ones, in the interest of being different from Japanese styles I believe that TSD took out much to try to make it different, however it's not, it's just simpler. Stances which are used in Wado are replaced by simpler ones, other movements are also replaced by simpler ones. If I could I would demonstrate the exact differences.

Tez3, I used to think like you did regarding the forms.

Upon closer inspection, the forms that the MDK SBD/TSD organization uses are not modified or missing significant material from Japanese schools. In fact, apart from very tiny changes to certain movements, they are precisely identical to Kata from the following styles:
-Pyung Ahn are identical to JKA Shotokan Heian froms (from the 1950s)
-Kong Sang Koon is identical to the shitei-kata (WKF) version of Kanku Dai (with two changes: removal of back kick in opening sequence, and addition of a hammer fist after each turn around, low spear hand and upper high block)
-Jindo is identical to the Wado and Shito-ryu Chinto forms, virtually move for move, with the exception that instead of a vertical elbow near the final turn, we do a horizontal one.

I suspect we have similarities with the Renbukai and Shudokan forms, but since there are few reliable videos on youtube showing forms from those schools in the 1950-1970s, when the Moodukkwan, jidokwan and renbukan memebers would visit each other and train together, I can't finish comparing these "styles".

 

[reeskm]

We have five codes
1 loyalty to country: Be loyal to the country in which you live and follow its laws
[...]
5 in fighting choose with sense and honor: Only use what is necessary to win the battle. Do not cause great harm when none is needed

These are the modern TKD version of the 5 teachings of the monk Won Gwang, taught to the Hwarang. They are simply paraphrased. To my knowledge, using these in modern martial arts was Hwang Kee's unique idea and this seperates him greatly from Japanese and Okinawan styles and their dojo precepts and teachings. He dug this up from the 14th century and started promoting this in his MooDukKwan. If you are TKD MooDukKwan in your history, it would not surprise me that you would still have these in your curriculum.

We also have seven tenants
1 Integrity:Sincerity, completeness, soundness of action
[...]
7 Indomitable Spirit: Unstoppable actions and thoughts--never wavering from the chosen path

These are influenced by Kukki TKD (TKDers, please correct me if I'm wrong). They are definitely part of all modern TKD curriculums, regardless of what your Kwan history would be, if any. Most traditional TSD schools do not use these tenets, because they were derived later during the TKD unification movement in the 1960s.

 

[Runs With Fire]

my school is traditional Tung Soo Do

 

[Tez3]

Tez3, I used to think like you did regarding the forms.

Upon closer inspection, the forms that the MDK SBD/TSD organization uses are not modified or missing significant material from Japanese schools. In fact, apart from very tiny changes to certain movements, they are precisely identical to Kata from the following styles:
-Pyung Ahn are identical to JKA Shotokan Heian froms (from the 1950s)
-Kong Sang Koon is identical to the shitei-kata (WKF) version of Kanku Dai (with two changes: removal of back kick in opening sequence, and addition of a hammer fist after each turn around, low spear hand and upper high block)
-Jindo is identical to the Wado and Shito-ryu Chinto forms, virtually move for move, with the exception that instead of a vertical elbow near the final turn, we do a horizontal one.

I suspect we have similarities with the Renbukai and Shudokan forms, but since there are few reliable videos on youtube showing forms from those schools in the 1950-1970s, when the Moodukkwan, jidokwan and renbukan memebers would visit each other and train together, I can't finish comparing these "styles".

I have to disagree, if you look at the Wado Ryu Pinan series then there are considerably more movements than in the equivalent of the TSD ones.

 

[TSDTexan]

I have to disagree, if you look at the Wado Ryu Pinan series then there are considerably more movements than in the equivalent of the TSD ones.

Hey Tez? I have a question for you.

I know that Wado-ryu has Nidan and Shodan reversed when compared Shotokan Karate. But I was wondering if you could Please help me chart this out from Wado to TSD or vice versa


Pinan Nidan -( Despite being called "second", this kata is taught first) = TSD Pyong-Ahn?

Pinan Shodan = TSD Pyong-Ahn?

Pinan Sandan = TSD Pyong-Ahn?

Pinan Yondan = TSD Pyong-Ahn?

Pinan Godan = TSD Pyong-Ahn?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TSD Pyong-Ahn Cho Dan = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

TSD Pyong-Ahn Ee Dan = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

TSD Pyong-Ahn Sam Dan = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

TSD Pyong-Ahn Sa Dan = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

TSD Pyong-Ahn Oh Dan = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

Ready Stance.

Turn to the left 90 degrees and Low Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Turn 180 degrees to the right and Low Block. Front Stance.

Move right blocking arm towards groin rotating the wrist 180 degrees until palm faces outward. Slide right foot back towards right foot forming an ‘L’ with heels about 3 inches apart. Back should be bent slightly.

Straighten body up. Move straightened right arm in a large clockwise circle, first crossing in front of body, over your head, rotating the wrist 180 degrees and end with the arm straight out to the right parallel with the ground about collar bone height. Turn body 90 degrees to the right stepping in the direction of the out stretched arm and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Turn to the left 90 degrees and with waist-twist left arm Low Block. Cross arms and left arm Middle Knife Hand Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and right arm High Defense. Good twist, Front Stance.

Step forward and left arm High Defense. Good twist, Front Stance.

Step forward and right arm High Defense. Good twist, Front Stance. Ki-yup.

Turn 270 degrees to the left and left arm Low Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Turn 180 degrees to the right and Low Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Turn 90 degrees to the left and Low Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance. Ki-yup.

Right hand moves, open palmed, behind back at waist. Left hand moves, open palmed, up to right ear, palm facing ear. Raise left knee until thigh is parallel with the floor. Turn 270 degrees to the left; place the left leg down in a Fighting Stance.

Move left arm down and right arm up in a Low Knife Hand Block. Fighting Stance.

Turn 45 degrees to the right and right arm Low Knife Hand Block. Fighting Stance.

Turn 135 degrees to the right and right arm Low Knife Hand Block. Fighting Stance.

Turn 45 degrees to the left and left arm Low Knife Hand Block. Fighting Stance.

Return to Ready Stance

Bow