Eight Key Concepts

[Tez3]

This is the order of Wado katas, we don't have the equivalent of Kee Cho Hyung Ee Boo or Sam Boo. Wado videos here show the founder performing the kata, an impeccable source


Pinan Nidan (Pyung Ahn Cho Dan)

Pinan Shodan (Pyung Ahn Ee Dan)

Pinan Sandan ((Pyung Ahn Sam Dan)

Pinan Yodan (Pyung Ahn Sa Dan)

Pinan Godan (Pyung Ahn Oh Dan)

Then
we do Kushanku and after Naihanchi.

Hironori Otsuka sensei - Kushanku - YouTube



Karate Wadoryu - YouTube

 

[reeskm]

I have to disagree, if you look at the Wado Ryu Pinan series then there are considerably more movements than in the equivalent of the TSD ones.

I just can't agree either! I think you must be watching a bad version of the TSD version of the form. I do each and every move of the Wado version I found straight off of youtube. I'm convinced. Trust me, if I wasn't convinced, I wouldn't have said so. Or, has the Wado version changed over the years?
Didn't I post a link to the wado version?

So far the best match I've found for the TSD forms published in Hwang Kee's Volume 2 master text are old videos from the WUKO mid 1980's "official" forms. This makes sense, as at one point Hwang Kee was a member of WUKO, as a founding member of the AKF (Asian Karatedo Federation).

Even so, his older forms still don't skip a beat or miss many moves. You could say contemporary japanese karate-do has missed or changed the forms just as much as Hwang did. The argument to say TSD dropped moves just dosen't hold water.

 

[Tez3]

I just can't agree either! I think you must be watching a bad version of the TSD version of the form. I do each and every move of the Wado version I found straight off of youtube. I'm convinced. Trust me, if I wasn't convinced, I wouldn't have said so. Or, has the Wado version changed over the years?
Didn't I post a link to the wado version?

So far the best match I've found for the TSD forms published in Hwang Kee's Volume 2 master text are old videos from the WUKO mid 1980's "official" forms. This makes sense, as at one point Hwang Kee was a member of WUKO, as a founding member of the AKF (Asian Karatedo Federation).

Even so, his older forms still don't skip a beat or miss many moves. You could say contemporary japanese karate-do has missed or changed the forms just as much as Hwang did. The argument to say TSD dropped moves just dosen't hold water.

Actually I have a Dan grade in TSD. The Wado Katas are done as I posted in the videos...as done by the founder of Wado Ryu, can't get much more authentic than that.

 

[reeskm]

I've watched those videos that you linked. Again, I don't see any appreciable difference regarding missing moves, that TSD dropped. Of course, Otsuka famously changed the embusen slightly and changed some of the stances, but to me I'm seeing the same thing. Oh, he also does Pinan #1 and #2 opposite modern Shotokan and TSD schools, but again this is not a case of missing moves.

But, is this what you are referring to? TSD is missing these changes that only Wado has?

 

[Tez3]

Comparing the hyungs and the katas in the books I have it's clear, by comparing move by move that there are significant differences. The Wado Kata book I have is by Shingo Ohgami and the TSD is by Grand master Kang Uk Lee. Perhaps it's specifically this style of TSD that is different?

 

[karatemom3]

I'm curious, were the eight key concepts of martial arts written by Grandmaster Hwang Kee? Do other martial arts use them?

 

[reeskm]

Comparing the hyungs and the katas in the books I have it's clear, by comparing move by move that there are significant differences. The Wado Kata book I have is by Shingo Ohgami and the TSD is by Grand master Kang Uk Lee. Perhaps it's specifically this style of TSD that is different?

I think we'll have to take this to another post! But to answer briefly - I've met Lee Kang Uk in person and trained with him at a day long seminar. I have his book, too. His techniques are the original and old school MDK and almost identical to Shotokan that I have ever seen when you look at the Pinan/Pyung-Ahn forms. The more I do this, the more I see how identical it is.

Any free material online or excerpts from that book by Shingo Ohgami? After all, Wado and Shotokan have the same roots, but a different take. We have Wado (Ohtsuka's) knife self defense and seated self defense sparring techniques in our system! And our one steps have a definite jiu-jitsu feel to them (ho sin sool is same kanjii as go shin jutsu.) I think there are ties between Korean Karate and Wado, but I can't find them. I am still looking for them.

 

[reeskm]

I'm curious, were the eight key concepts of martial arts written by Grandmaster Hwang Kee? Do other martial arts use them?

I believe they were written by him, but it is hard to find proof.

As for whether other arts use them, the answer is yes. They do not use them as a list of 8 concepts in the same order as Hwang wrote them, but each one of these concepts are integral to the martial arts, period.

So you will often see other arts such as Kendo promote the value of concentration, speed control and control of power and humility. Likewise, Miyagi (Goju) promoted the idea of tension and relaxation and speed control in his kata.

 

[Tez3]

I think we'll have to take this to another post! But to answer briefly - I've met Lee Kang Uk in person and trained with him at a day long seminar. I have his book, too. His techniques are the original and old school MDK and almost identical to Shotokan that I have ever seen when you look at the Pinan/Pyung-Ahn forms. The more I do this, the more I see how identical it is.

Any free material online or excerpts from that book by Shingo Ohgami? After all, Wado and Shotokan have the same roots, but a different take. We have Wado (Ohtsuka's) knife self defense and seated self defense sparring techniques in our system! And our one steps have a definite jiu-jitsu feel to them (ho sin sool is same kanjii as go shin jutsu.) I think there are ties between Korean Karate and Wado, but I can't find them. I am still looking for them.

The karate part of Wado certainly has Shotokan roots but karate is only a part of Wado, jujutsu is the other part of course. I've found in Wado many stances and techniques that differ quite a lot from TSD and that you don't find in Shotokan. I believe the 'body moving' concepts of Wado are different from Shotokan as well. I'm not sure about any connection between Wado and Korean karate, I've certainly never heard of any and looking at the founder's biography there's nothing to suggest any connection from his side. I'm not much of a historian when it comes to martial arts I'm afraid, perhaps Chris Parker is the one who may know more or be able to suggest lines of enquiry?
I'm a bit useless I'm afraid as far as knowing where to find anything online from Shingo Ohgami, I have his books, Cirdan may know more. There are a lot of articles on Wado available though.