I think it's bizarre for the same reason I thought it was bizarre the first time I encountered this idea about 20 years ago when I was in college: it signals a fundamental moral (and intellectual) bankruptcy that is, apparently widespread through society.
bankruptcy? I don't know about that. Certainly I'd go as far as to say that there is a genuine moral deficiency where sexuality is concerned. And I'm not talking about it in the Victorian sense of, "Oh, I do declare! Those kids are having SEX!"
I won't argue that some morality is taught. It is. But much of it is derived from general principles that have already been taught. In other words, a parent teaches a child "Don't steal." As the child grows up he is able to reason out from that principle that fraud is wrong. A parent teaches a child "Always keep your word." As the child grows they know that keeping marital vows is of paramount importance. Etc.
Right. Parents are teaching morality that is aligned with society. In this case, parents teach their kids (generally) to respect other people, that rape is wrong and that for a man to take advantage of a woman is considered rape. Society teaches them otherwise, and the contrary messages are pervasive. I was just watching a brand new sitcom the other night (Trophy Wife) and two women were drinking "Panty Droppers."
My point is, if we have to specifically teach men that a woman who is passed out drunk cannot give consent and that any sexual behavior taken on their part is rape is indicative of a much larger problem. I would also argue that, if such training is necessary in the first place it will itself be a futile endeavor. What is needed is much more fundamental.
I don't think we're disagreeing here. There IS a larger problem. As I said to Tgace, the training will likely not change many individuals behavior, but the training will help in other ways. At the very least, the training sets a clear expectation. What we're both saying, I think, is that what is needed is a fundamental shift in culture. Starting there, setting clear expectations, such as through training or whatever, will help hold people accountable.
I really think we're saying the same thing, which is why I wonder why you keep using the term "bizarre."
It has always been considered a "reasonable tactic" by some people, of course. But if you're saying it's now much more widespread, I agree. As for where they learned it, that depends on the person. The dreaded amorphous "society" is certainly to blame to some extent. But society is made up of people and families.
And the internet and peer groups and schools and clubs and the media and churches and work.
If there is a fundamental problem with men not realizing raping someone is bad the fault at least partially lies with their parents. Of course, they themselves are guilty, too, since we all have the ability to use our reason to arrive at the truth about things. (I won't get into ridiculous exceptions that would mitigate moral culpability because that's not the point. And making an exception into a norm is absurd.)
once again, we agree. I would only add that you might be forgetting the significant influences on a person from outside the family. In fact, while parents are the singular authority on most things early in a child's development, as schools, clubs, peer groups and other external activities start entering the mix, children receive significant influences (both good and bad) from outside the home.
We don't need to train men that getting a girl drunk and then raping her is bad. We need something much more basic than that. Because if a man has come to the conclusion that maybe it's not so bad to rape a woman when she's passed out you're going to have to start at rock bottom in your moral reasoning with him. (Unless one would want to simply concentrate on the possibility if prosecution and jail time which would stand as a deterrent only for some, I think.)
When I first said it, I put "train" in quotes, because the term was being used by others. What you're saying is that we don't need (or shouldn't need) to tell a guy that raping her when she's drunk or passed out is bad. I think we do. Not that raping is bad. Most young men would agree that raping anyone is bad.
The training is, "Hey, if she's drunk or passed out... that's rape." It's, "This is rape. This is not rape." Because the issue is muddied in popular culture from scenes from TV Shows and Movies as recently as last week, to as far back as I can remember (Anyone remember the devil/angel scene in Animal House).
