Dominate position in stand up game

Kung Fu Wang

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In ground game, you want to obtain a "dominate position". In stand up game, you also want to obtain "dominate position" as well.

In stand up game, if you can put both hands on top of your opponent's elbow joints and inside of his arms, he can't punch you or wrestle you. In CMA, it's called "mantis hands".

What's your opinion on this strategy?

mantis_hands.jpg
 
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oftheherd1

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In ground game, you want to obtain a "dominate position". In stand up game, you also want to obtain "dominate position" as well.

In stand up game, if you can put both hands on top of your opponent's elbow joints and inside of his arms, he can't punch you or wrestle you. In CMA, it's called "mantis hands".

What's your opinion on this strategy?

mantis_hands.jpg

I guess it depends on what happens next.
 

Hanzou

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Honestly I would say that the Muay Thai clinch is a pretty dominant position in stand up.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Honestly I would say that the Muay Thai clinch is a pretty dominant position in stand up.
You have to pass the "wrist gate" before you can reach to the "elbow gate". You then have to pass the "elbow gate" before you can reach to the "head/shoulder gate".

The "MT clinch" is the "head/shoulder gate". The "mantis hands" is the "elbow gate".
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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What about base attacks?
There are many ways to obtain that "mantis hands".

One way is to use your right hand to

- grab, or
- soft hold, or
- downward parry

on your opponent's left wrist. A hook punch will achieve the same goal. When he tries to rotate his arm to deal with it, you then slide your right hand along his left arm, put palm on top of his left elbow joint and inside his left arm.

You wrist grabbing is a fake set up. You just want your opponent to rotate his arm, open his center, so you can slide in.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I guess it depends on what happens next.
If you can get that "mantis hands" position, you can

- hook punch on your opponent's head,
- straight punch on his face,
- double over hooks his both shoulders
- head lock his head,
- both palms strike on his ears,
- ...

In other words, the "dominate position" is just a temporary position. You should move in right after that. The "mantis hands" is a "dominate position" for both strikers and grapplers.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I wouldn't call it a dominate position. The stand up game has way too much movement to define it as something as simple as that. This technique could be done and all the person would have to do is twist the waist which puts one elbow out of range. Adding circular arm movements and footwork will make it difficult to keep the hands on the elbows. Change the height of the stance and it becomes even messier.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I wouldn't call it a dominate position. The stand up game has way too much movement to define it as something as simple as that.
It's a "temporary position" and may only need for 1/4 second. That's why a lot of training will be needed. I like to train this all by myself.

- Let my right hand to grab on my own left wrist with "tiger mouse (space between thumb and index finger)" facing to my right.
- I rotate my left arm inward against my right thumb.
- I then slide my right hand along my left arm, and reach on top of my left elbow joint.

It's a very fun right hand fight against left hand self-training. Sometime my right hand wins. Other time my left hand wins.

Both the praying mantis and CLF system have a similar move like this. It's a hook punch change into a straight punch.
 
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oftheherd1

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There are many ways to obtain that "mantis hands".

One way is to use your right hand to

- grab, or
- soft hold, or
- downward parry

on your opponent's left wrist. A hook punch will achieve the same goal. When he tries to rotate his arm to deal with it, you then slide your right hand along his left arm, put palm on top of his left elbow joint and inside his left arm.

You wrist grabbing is a fake set up. You just want your opponent to rotate his arm, open his center, so you can slide in.

I guess I misunderstood. I can see a block at his elbows for any of a number of reasons, something like Chi Sao I would guess. But as soon as you release his left elbow to use your right hand and arm, wouldn't you free his left hand to attack you?

If you can get that "mantis hands" position, you can

- hook punch on your opponent's head,
- straight punch on his face,
- double over hooks his both shoulders
- head lock his head,
- both palms strike on his ears,
- ...

In other words, the "dominate position" is just a temporary position. You should move in right after that. The "mantis hands" is a "dominate position" for both strikers and grapplers.

I can see that and don't doubt that with sufficient practice it could be a useful move at times. But in the Hapkido I learned we would prefer to move in and sideways, blocking the opponent's forward hand and controlling it with a grappling move, or striking a then unprotected part of the opponent's anatomy.

Maybe if I saw the move in action it would make more sense.
 

Kickboxer101

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In ground game, you want to obtain a "dominate position". In stand up game, you also want to obtain "dominate position" as well.

In stand up game, if you can put both hands on top of your opponent's elbow joints and inside of his arms, he can't punch you or wrestle you. In CMA, it's called "mantis hands".

What's your opinion on this strategy?

mantis_hands.jpg
I don't think that's a dominate position as you're both still standing and are close to each other. When standing up the only way your dominating is when you're up on they're down
 

KangTsai

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You have to pass the "wrist gate" before you can reach to the "elbow gate". You then have to pass the "elbow gate" before you can reach to the "head/shoulder gate".

The "MT clinch" is the "head/shoulder gate". The "mantis hands" is the "elbow gate".
Or you could just skip those and straight collar tie to plumb. Trying to stick a philosophy on everything isn't exactly ideal.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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But as soon as you release his left elbow to use your right hand and arm, wouldn't you free his left hand to attack you?

But in the Hapkido I learned we would prefer to move in and sideways, blocking the opponent's forward hand and controlling it with a grappling move, or striking a then unprotected part of the opponent's anatomy.
That's why your right arm has to be "on top" and "inside" of his left arm. Not only you can press down his left arm and borrow the counter force to generate your initial right arm speed, since you right arm is inside of his left arm, your right hand will have shorter distance to reach to his head then his left hand can.

You are talking about to move in through the "side door" (outside of your opponent's arms). I'm talking about to move in through the "front door" (between your opponent's arms). Both are valid strategies.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I don't think that's a dominate position as you're both still standing and are close to each other. When standing up the only way your dominating is when you're up on they're down
"Dominate" in the sense that your opponent can't punch you at that particular moment. Of course if you can use your leading leg to control your opponent's leading leg so he can't kick you at that particular moment, that will be even better.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Tiger's mouth not "tiger mouse". Can't blame this one on google translate. :stop:
You will see this English question in almost all TOEFL (Test of English as Foreign Language) examine. The correct answer is always "1". :)

1.

- telephone book,
- tiger mouth

2.

- telephone's book,
- tiger's mouth.

3.

- book of telephone,
- mouth of tiger.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Or you could just skip those and straight collar tie to plumb. Trying to stick a philosophy on everything isn't exactly ideal.
If you can obtain a "collar tie", you have already passed the "mantis hands". But to obtain that "collar tie" is not always an easy task when your opponent is on your level.
 
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