Dog training-obedience, agility anyone do it?

[TigerWoman]

I had my first occasion to go with my 8 mo. toy poodle pup, Ninja to obedience today. First week of 24, then hopefully to agility. So right away he barks and growls at the amiable Rottweiler next chair, then the hyper beagle, then finally attacks Precious Peaches, on the other side. Peaches was saved by the trainer who jerked Ninja up hard by the scruff of his neck. Not really an attack, Ninja and his momma play and ferociously play/growling up and down the hall like they are the banshees from hell. I had to get used to it. So I doubt Peaches was in trouble, but Ninja was. He's the smallest of the bunch, six pounds, but apparently either the most scared or the most alpha. ??

Then to come home and try this clicker thing, click~the dogs just hate the sound, love the squeaky toys, but hate the clicker. I was told all dogs like the clicker, huh? They wouldn't even eat the liverwurst when that click happened. It is supposed to be a good dog/reward reminder. This is a definite sign that this is not going to go well...

Besides the fact that both dogs used to come fine before the clicker. Ninja even sat on command and walks on heel. He wouldn't do anything, not come, not sit, not eat anything, the rest of the day. So I'm supposed to do 2 sessions a day, 15min x 2-- 5 behaviors. We'll see how it goes tomorrow. Tomorrow, I have a TKD class and lead a kickboxing class... in-between there and other stuff.

Anyone have any trouble training or experience training non-hunting dogs?
Has clicker training worked for you? TW

 

[Sarah]

I use to Instruct Domectic Dog Obedience, from 3months up. I also did competitive obedience and agility with all three of my dogs, and my late husband did sled racing with the 2 huskies.

I stoped when I started MA as I just didnt have to time to do both.

I have done clicker training with 1 husky and my Lab, (more for trick training) was fantasic for my husky but my Lab use to get a little frustrated.

I dont use the clicker for normal training as I have never needed to, im sure it would be fine if you wanted to do that but from my experience the average person off the street would not benefit from it, its more the advance dog trainers.

Also please note that you do not have to use a clicker, you can use a word, something that sqeeks...anything.

The purpose of the click is to pinpoint the exact moment that the dog did what you wanted, and they learn that the click means a reward is on the way...therefore you dont have to worry about getting the reward to them the instant the did the trick right etc.

Please keep in mind that for a least a week dont use the clicker for training, you first have to teach the dog that a click means treat...

so several times a day for a week....click, treat, click, treat etc...dont ask that they do anything DONT CLICK AND NOT TREAT... I am pretty confident that after a week of this your dog will like the clicker.

 

[michaeledward]

I would think that 8 months old is very late to begin obedience training ... it is never too late, but as a former anti-canine person, I think dog training must begin as soon as possible. One former breeder I know used to start at 7 weeks. But certainly, training should begin by 3 months.

One of the challenges, I think, is that 'toy' breeds are so cute, and little, well, they don't need training. If they misbehave, you can just pick him up an put him in your purse.

I have two Leonbergers ... my ***** is 100 pounds, my dog is about 125 ... and they are both small for the breed. It would be inconceivable to allow these dogs to get to 8 months without obedience training.

Some clicker people will tell you to never use negative reinforcement when training your pup. I disagree. Certainly, you should be using 80 - 85 percent positive reinforcement. But there are times for negative reinforcement.

A couple of random thoughts ....

• Be sure that all household members understand and agree on the training rules.
• Train frequently, but in short bursts; three minutes, five minutes.
• Remember, your pup is training you, too.

Once I began to understand the difference between canine behavior and primate behavior, I gained a much greater understanding and appreciation for our relationships with man's best friend.

Good Luck.

 

[Sarah]

Great advice..and I Love Leonbergers

Effectively what the dogs thinks when you pick them up and carry them around, im the king...you shall bow to my presence!!

A really good book that I recommend a lot of 'The Dog Listener, by Jan Fennell" She talks a lot about dog behavior and why dogs do the things they do.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that a dog thinks like a person...they dont, they think like dogs, they cant rationalize etc.

Good luck in your training, it is best to start early, but it is never to late.

 

[TigerWoman]

Thank you both! You are right Sarah, I will just stick with the click/treat with Momma out of the room. She finally forgave me last night, she is such a scaredy cat dog. She was traumatized by being transported via airline as a pup, and never got over it. She hates noise. Vacuum cleaner sends her downstairs and shaking. She was never a good show dog, but her owner tried. That book sounds interesting too, I will look for it!

So, I should have started earlier, but I did really although I have never taken obedience classes nor knew when to start formally, my dogs have trained sufficiently but there is big difference when they are around other dogs. I don't think I could have driven an hour on a bad road in Nov-Feb. here and the obedience class via community ed is just a few weeks and goes nowhere from basic obedience. And Ninja was being trained to walk and sit when I got him at 3 mos. I have been teaching wwhim to sit and stay. And he always came to me. But agility interests me and to get to agility, he has to be very well trained in obedience and around other dogs. So, that will be the challenge.

I think that was good advice, Michael about the short 3-5 min. training bursts too and the other members of the family. Well, they are too busy anyway to do much except pet them. So, I'm it.

Thanks, again. I may be "consulting" you both for free again in the future....warning! TW

 

[Cruentus]

My dog is being trained for Shutzhund. Obedience is at the foundation of Shutzhund training. Agility is involved as well, but not competiitive agility, only enough to do the protection work and tracking.

I love working with my dog, and so does he. That said...got to go train!

 

[Cruentus]

Before I go...

#1. Clicker training is not nessicary, because they can respond to your voice as a reward marker just as well ("yes!" or "good!"). If they don't like the clicker, don't use it. All dogs are different. But that is my opinion, and I do agree with Sarah that you can train them to like the clicker; but I am of the opinion that a voice reward marker is more useful. But, there may be a reason you may need the clicker for agility competitions (the rules may limit voice commands or something), but I don't know.

#2. Positive reinforcement is the key. Some Negative reinforcement (pinch collar, for example) is useful, but I wouldn't recommend it on a young dog (under 6 mo.). You want them to enjoy training w/o negative experience.

#3. I am of the unorthidox opinion that obedience, at least in the classroom, isn't needed until about 6mo. I find it more useful to socialize them, teach them basic behavior through positive reinforcement (like where to go potty, what to chew and not chew, crate comfort, etc.), and play, play, play. Build up that play drive and it is easier to work with them for stuff like agility and other dog sports.

You will find that there are as many opinins about dog training as there are for martial arts training! Take care..

Paul

 

[TigerWoman]

Before I go...

#1. Clicker training is not nessicary, because they can respond to your voice as a reward marker just as well ("yes!" or "good!"). If they don't like the clicker, don't use it. All dogs are different. But that is my opinion, and I do agree with Sarah that you can train them to like the clicker; but I am of the opinion that a voice reward marker is more useful. But, there may be a reason you may need the clicker for agility competitions (the rules may limit voice commands or something), but I don't know. ... Paul

Just quoting part of... I think clicker training might be useful too, but don't know about whether they use voice or clicker in agility. After all, I was doing pretty well before I went to class lst time, with just voice and treat. I even would tell him to come and he came (like to get out of a bedroom) I think I should try to go with the program now.

Actually, just had a little session. +++ I took the mama dog and put her in the bedroom. Ninja had no distraction and behaved beautifully. One shy at the clicker on the second time but after that...he came, he sat, he stayed 100%. Again, no distraction. Then a black dog entered our driveway and he went beserk. Sigh! But that was after our training and collar, leash and clicker was put away.

And he is fanatic about playing with toys. Will "hunt" them if they go astray from a wild throw. He will go through the back of the couch against a wall so tunnels probably not a problem. He perches on the back of the thin chair, even trys to curl up on my head. Very long legged, all black, and very much like a monkey! He will put a toy in the middle of the floor then leap around it diagonally, touching it and rebounding. Wish I could tape it. Its wild. So I think an active activity for him would be really good especially in Minnesota where we stay indoors alot. TW

 

[Tarot]

It is never ever too late to train a dog. Never. They are willing to learn at all stages in life. Having worked with rescue, such thinking tends to get my hackles up. People don't want to adopt older dogs because they think they are untrainable, which of course is not true.

I probably would have not gone back to class had the instructor picked my dog up by the neck. There's no need for physical punishment towards an animal ever, IMO.

Going with what Sarah said, you can use anything as a marker, it doesn't have to be a clicker. Also if they don't like the liverworst try something else that you know they love. Cheese, hotdogs, pepperoni, anything really smelly to get their attention. The Dog Listener is a great book. You can buy a lot of great books online at http://www.dogwise.com/Dogwise

It sounds like things are going well for you! Good luck with your training!

 

[HKphooey]

Positive attention is always the best reward. I am a firm believer that an "atta boy or girl" with a happy voice is better that food treats and clickers. It promotes a bond between the dog and the owner (not the treat or the clicker). I am not a professional trainer, just a dedicated dog lover.

As for agility training...I think it is the most fun i have with my dog. I get excercise at the same time she does. The dog does not ahve to be great at it, but be sure to use obstacles suited for your dogs size. Once again, it is an activity that promotes a bond between owner and dog. If I get bored of fetch, I am sure she is too.

If all else fails, remember how domesticated dogs have become they still have a mind of there own and will do as they please. In these cases i suggest you read "Marley and Me". Even a "bad" dog is a loving dog.

 

[MA-Caver]

A friend of mine years ago used to train/rehabilitate wolves. He told me that (domesticated) dogs are perpetual puppies, never mentally or emotionally maturing to their full potential. Wolves in the wild have to "work" to get their food. If they don't join in on the hunt they are placed at the bottom of the pack ladder and are treated like pups or outright killed or driven from the pack. They have no use in a close knit society where every individual contributes to the survival of the whole.
Domesticated (house) dogs however have their food/water brought to them daily and are sheltered with the family (pack) with little or no effort on their part. The guarding instinct is there of course but unless it's honed and brought to the dog's mind that they're working for their bed and board by guarding the house/den and it's occupants/pack, they could very well end up licking a burgular (or worse) to death rather biting them.
Thus dogs have to be trained by the alpha male/females of their packs to get them to a point where they are maturing to be a functional member of their pack. A dog that knows that it's role is that of a guardian will mature and be responsible enough to take it's "job" seriously. This is of course moot without proper training.
I get so tired of seeing people getting themselves a dog (or two) and then putting it in the back yard and that's it. Oh, they may work with it once in a while, teaching it (not training) to sit, beg, roll-over and all sorts of amusing tricks that a young pup would love to do to get a treat.
A dog is like a child, the owner has to be responsible enough to work with that animal on a daily basis, even if for 15 minutes a day (turn off the damned TV/computer) and using the correct methods outlined by experts, to train their animal. Putting them in their place in the pack and utilizing alpha male/female (wolves) technqiues to establish the hierarchy. To know that the alpha female's pups (household children) are above it and must be obeyed when a command is given ... "NO!" for example when the dog's play gets too rough. A dog growling at a child is asserting it's percieved place in the pack when the child is encroaching without realizing it. Children must be taught as well to respect the animal's boundries and how to (properly) assert their place to the dog.
Police dogs and security dogs are probably more closer to maturity to their wolf cousins because they are in a "work" environment, they are "earning" their daily kibble. The handler/officer is assigned a dog and is trained alongside so the dog has that pack-partnership mentality whenever it goes on duty. The animals know if their partner is on duty by senses that we could only wish that we have and thus will adopt the same attitude. When the officer is at "rest" then the dog will do likewise. But it's a partnership and a working one. Which is why you read/hear about the various heroics of these animals defending their partners by taking a bullet or putting themselves in harm's way. An alpha (wolf) male/female is usually the first to go into defense of the pack, the beta male/female is right there behind/besides backing the alpha up. Thus police/security dogs function with this type of mentality/maturity. But they know their place and will act when told to.
Even a toy poodle will have these inheirent instincts and can be a great companion... with proper daily training. When to stop? You don't really, as with a child growing into a teenager growing into an adult they're always learning.
There are dozens of methods to train dogs. Clickers, squeekers, etc. etc. The key factor is continuity, repetition. I've seen great dogs because their owners work with them constantly and the dog is consistent in obeying commands. I've also noticed that the well trained dog is actually happier and less frustrated and less likely to misbehave when it's well trained.

One of my favorite dog training stories goes back to my father who trained our 215 lb St. Benard not to ever-ever steal a roast from the dining room table. My mom was preparing dinner for some out of town guests. She had everything ready to go and placed the roast on the table and went back to the kitchen to get the veggies and other stuff. When she came back into the dining room the roast was gone and she turned in time to see our dog choking down the roast in what must've been three swallows. The dog KNEW that it didn't have time to leisurely chew it's prize.
My dad calmed my distraught mother down and said we're just have to deal with it because a roast like that would take an hour and a half to prepare and cook (this was before the advent of microwaves... if you can imagine that) and the guest were due in 15-20 minutes. Punishment for the dog was severe to say the least... for the dog anyway... It was forced to sit in the corner of the dining room until we finished our dinner... and I mean sit! Almost like at attention. If she even thought of lowering her head or laying down Dad's stern voice carried over and she resumed the position.
Normally we fed this dog about 4 cups of dog food a day, big dog--big meal, she wasn't fat by no means. Dad poured her the usual amount and she sniffed at it and tried to walk off... nope! Eat! She did with what I remember as the most mournful look a dog could have. Every bite.
Then Dad had her lay about for about 1/2 an hour then let her outside to do her business. Needless to say she was out there for quite a while.
Since then, my Mom was able to place anything on the table without fear of it being stolen.

 

[TigerWoman]

What a great post, alot of good info there about the pack mentality. Thanks for sharing that roast story. I didn't have too many dogs who would sit up like that. I did have a poodle who posed for me for an oil portrait on a end table. It would start to drowse off and I would let him down. Now maybe I think it was something akin to punishment. I'm just amazed the dog ate that dinner after chucking down a roast. I remember our German Shepherd stole a steak off the grill, and we were in the middle of a BBQ party. He got exiled to the side on a chain and no more food that day. But he didn't try that again either (or maybe the grill was too hot). :idunno:

My picky poodles don't want to eat dog food. I've tried probably the most expensive, canned and dry, rated best by the Dog Journal beside reviews from other sources. It even smells good to me-even has peas, carrots, glucosamine, lutein for poodle eyes. So I have put the food down for 10-15 minutes then pick it up, three times a day. Just started that. No, they would prefer to starve. They eat very little. You see, their previous owner, breeder, bottle fed them, then hand fed them ALWAYS, so I did that for awhile, he was a puppy after all. But no more. But they like what we humans eat, popcorn, cheese, deli meat, crackers, potato chips--they do have taste buds. So, the treats for training become a big thing. I raised two dogs on Mighty Dog, considered one of the worst dog foods, but both of my previous dogs went 17 & 15 yrs. respectively, and were healthy until the last two years. Stroke and Diabetes/Cancer/Heart attack. So, makes me wonder why I try to give them better food and in trying to find what they like the most, they get more picky. Maybe they aren't so dumb, and I am. So I'm giving them one kind now and thats it for awhile then maybe I'll change it in few months. Seems like a plan, until they come to me and look like they are starving. TW

So anyway, appreciated that you think I can train my Cujo, MA Caver.
(that name was given by my sister at Thanksgiving)

 

[Sarah]

Another excellent book you may want to look at is:

Why Does My Dog..., by John Fisher

 

[MA-Caver]

My picky poodles

(giggles)








p.s. you're welcome

 

[Cruentus]

Some titles to pick up:

"Don't Shoot the Dog" by behavioral psychologist karan Pryer. Mrs. Pryor was the pioneer for positive reinforcement training.

"If Dogs Could Talk..." by Ethologist Vilmos Csanyi and Richard E. Quandt. A lot of information on the DOMESTIC DOG.

And if your real bored... "On Aggression" By Konrad Lorenz is an oldie but a goodie.

I am saying DOMESTIC and stressing it because I don't believe in "pack mentality" and "dominance" or "alpha" positioning, and well researched theories back up this belief. Although, this is contrary to most trainers understanding of dogs.

Dogs have been with us for as long as we have been around. There are records of domesticated dogs going back as far as the first homosapiens. Dogs are FAR REMOVED from their wolf ancestors, and no longer function as a pack member, but instead function as a member of the human team or unit, whether it be a household or tribe or what have you. Wolves have different parts of their brain that are much more developed then dogs that have to do with survival skills, like hearing, sense of smell, etc. But dogs have parts of their brain that are developed greater then wolves that allow them to learn things like obedience and problem solving in a human environment, things that wolves are incapable of. Comparing the two is like comparing chimps to humans.

However, they are still social animals, like wolves, and therefore have certian survival traits that will be used if nessicary, meaning the dogs are placed in that situation. Traits like aggression, and determining a social order can be seen in stray dogs that pack together for survival. Anyone remember "Lord of the Flies?"

But don't look at an animals survival traits and mistaken dogs to have a "pack mentality" regarding your family where you have to be the "alpha" in your own home. Training based off dominance can be sometimes be ineffective, often is just not as effective, but can be down right dangerous depending on your dogs genetic make-up.

Again, I would look for a trainer that trains based of positive reinforcement, and who has an understanding of the dog not as a pack member, but as a member of your family unit. This may be hard to find though, unfortunatily...

Paul

 

[michaeledward]

A few more random thoughts ....

For a book ... I like 'The other end of the leash' .... As I recall, its about the end without the dog.

For me, the biggest change in my attitude toward dogs was when I recognized how incredibly different canines' are from primates'; and how good they are at adapting to our world.

Lastly, if you want to kill a few minutes (or hours).

www.puppywars.com

 

[TigerWoman]

Thanks Paul for a different viewpoint. I can see I have some reading to do. I like reading though. Alpha or not, Ninja is ferocious, as a 6 lb. pup can be. Although he doesn't seem as perturbed at my son's friends, he stays at the top of the stairs and growls instead of launching himself at them. The Culligan man came yesterday, I had to get the dogs from yapping at his heels or getting out, so I barracaded. But he slipped through, and started biting at the guys pants, AAH! He didn't notice as he was carrying a 40-50 lb. salt sack and trying to figure out where the step was. But if I was the guy, I would of, could of kicked the dog, trying to get loose. (I got him away). I've had two other male poodles, and neither are his mentality. They barked then shut up. So, I think I better get a handle on him. And I will have to keep him controlled at classes, too so a BIG dog doesn't get bit. TW

 

[Tarot]

My dog doesn't eat dog food either. He gets fresh meats, fruits, fish, and veggies.

Whole Dog Journal has great articles on dog foods and what is good and what isn't. They do not have adverts in the magazine, therefore this allows them to be completely unbiased in their reviews. It might be something to check out. They also have articles on behavior, leashes, etc. It's an excellent monthly mag, imo.

 

[arnisador]

Whole Dog Journal

My sister-in-law is a professional dog trainer who writes for them. She also has published some dog training books; my son is pictured in one of them, holding one of her dogs.

 

[Cruentus]

Thanks Paul for a different viewpoint. I can see I have some reading to do. I like reading though. Alpha or not, Ninja is ferocious, as a 6 lb. pup can be. Although he doesn't seem as perturbed at my son's friends, he stays at the top of the stairs and growls instead of launching himself at them. The Culligan man came yesterday, I had to get the dogs from yapping at his heels or getting out, so I barracaded. But he slipped through, and started biting at the guys pants, AAH! He didn't notice as he was carrying a 40-50 lb. salt sack and trying to figure out where the step was. But if I was the guy, I would of, could of kicked the dog, trying to get loose. (I got him away). I've had two other male poodles, and neither are his mentality. They barked then shut up. So, I think I better get a handle on him. And I will have to keep him controlled at classes, too so a BIG dog doesn't get bit. TW

Sounds like a classic case of fearful aggression. A lot of toy dogs are plagued by this...

Paul