DOES YOUR ART TEACH TMA WEAPONS?

[isshinryuronin]

Is weapons training a part of your art's curriculum? If so, which ones? Is it integrated into your empty hand training? Is it historically tied to your art or is it an add on feature?

 

[Flying Crane]

It is very common that Chinese methods teach traditional weapons. Some systems teach more variety of weapons, others less, but the soldiers’ weapons tend to be common (spear, sword, saber, Kwan-dao, and some variants on these) as well as a peasant’s weapon (staff, shorter stick, perhaps a shorter knife like dagger or butterfly dao). There are a variety of other weapons that are not taught across the range, some of these are specialist weapons for which good instruction is more rare. Examples are three-section staff, meteor hammer, rope dart, O-Mei daggers, chain whip, and some really odd pole-arm weapons like the wolf-tooth club and rake. Some of these feel like someone was just trying to get creative with the design and they strike me as probably more awkward and cumbersome than practical.

There is a theory that organized Chinese martial arts began a really really long time ago with weapons, as it was meant to train the army. Systematized and sophisticated empty-hand methods are, according to this theory, a much more recent development. If this notion holds water, it would explain why weapons are so common within Chinese methods, as well as why many of the same weapons forms are found in numerous systems and are often not unique to one method. There does seem to be a lot of swapping back-and-forth between systems, when it comes to weapons forms.

That being said, the weaponry that I have learned tends to track very closely with the foundational concepts upon which the empty-hand method is built. That gives consistency that I find useful and functional.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is weapons training a part of your art's curriculum? If so, which ones?

- Dagger
- staff
- spear
- sword
- knife
- Guan Dao

 

[isshinryuronin]

some of these are specialist weapons for which good instruction is more rare. Examples are three-section staff, meteor hammer, rope dart, O-Mei daggers, chain whip, and some really odd pole-arm weapons like the wolf-tooth club and rake. Some of these feel like someone was just trying to get creative with the design and they strike me as probably more awkward and cumbersome than practical.

Yes, over time, some things are carried too far to the point of impracticality, like over-sharpening a blade. It's human nature to get a little carried away.

here is a theory that organized Chinese martial arts began a really really long time ago with weapons, as it was meant to train the army. Systematized and sophisticated empty-hand methods are, according to this theory, a much more recent development. If this notion holds water, it would explain why weapons are so common within Chinese methods, as well as why many of the same weapons forms are found in numerous systems and are often not unique to one method.

This sounds very reasonable. Because the weapons came first, do you think the empty-handed techniques were heavily influenced by them?

 

[HighKick]

Is weapons training a part of your art's curriculum? If so, which ones? Is it integrated into your empty hand training? Is it historically tied to your art or is it an add on feature?

Yes, but likely not in the way you are asking. We regularly talk and teach how to use everyday weapons such as keys, voice, EDC, and such.
We do have a bo staff form for those who want to learn, but that has tapered off quite a bit.

 

[BrendanF]

Yes.
Two of the three arts I study are centered around weapons:

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu is a comprehensive koryu weapons art founded in the late 1400s, focused primarily on the use of the sword. It includes training in Kenjutsu, Bojutsu, Naginata, sojutsu, ryoto (both swords), kodachi (short sword), iai/battojutsu, yawara/jujutsu, shuriken, ninjutsu, tactic/strategic studies, fortification/troop movement and esoteric religious studies/mikkyo.

Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The yawara/jujutsu is not often practiced, and not what I would describe as 'closely integrated' into the weapon studies - the focus is on swordsmanship.

Sosuishi ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari is a jujutsu/batto system focused entirely on close quarters combat, founded in the early 1600s. It's curriculum is essentially split into kumiuchi/jujutsu - grappling with and without short sword/daggers, and koshi no mawari (iai - sword drawing) training.

The use of the sword is clearly heavily integrated into the unarmed component - much of the jujutsu includes sword use/retention/defence, and the 'iai' curriculum is also entirely focused on the same approach used in the grappling curriculum. Which makes some historical sense, as the founder reportedly created the art as a result of an epiphany as to how to integrate/combine his grappling and sword art training.

Sōsuishi-ryū - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sosuishi ryu has been closely associated with Kodokan Judo from the time Kano sensei was creating it. We do Kodokan Judo also.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Is weapons training a part of your art's curriculum? If so, which ones? Is it integrated into your empty hand training? Is it historically tied to your art or is it an add on feature?

We teach and require the traditional Isshinryu weapons in our dojo, so that means bo, sai, and tonfa (tuifa). We do teach advanced students the ways in which the movements in the weapons katas inform empty-handed techniques as well. Weapons katas are of course historically tied to Isshinryu.

We are also a Tokushinryu Kobudo dojo, teaching the entire curriculum of many, many, traditional Okinawan weapons and offering rankings in same.

I have learned some Tokushin katas, but I am not a student, nor do I hold any rank in Tokushin.

 

[Flying Crane]

This sounds very reasonable. Because the weapons came first, do you think the empty-handed techniques were heavily influenced by them?

This is probably true, however even though the empty-hand methods would have come later (according to this theory), quite some time has passed since. As empty-hand methods developed and changed over time they would have taken on their own identity and it may be difficult to match much of it directly. I can see some parallels in my own training, but difficult to say that X from a weapon directly corresponds to Y in the empty-hand. What I do see being nearly identical is the specific underlying foundation of how we train full-body unification. The method we use for the empty-hand can very easily be used within the context of the weapons. Whether it developed first in the context of weapons and then carried into an empty-hand system, or vice-versa, I cannot say.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chinese martial arts so...yeah
Jian, Dao, Short Staff, Long Staff, Húdié shuāng dāo

 

[isshinryuronin]

We are also a Tokushinryu Kobudo dojo, teaching the entire curriculum of many, many, traditional Okinawan weapons and offering rankings in same.

I'm familiar with Ryuku, Matayoshi and Yamani kobudo but haven't heard of Tokushinryu and had to google it. It seems European isshinryu sensei, Lars Anderson, has some involvement with it. Also, their Chatan Yara no sai and Hama Higa no tuifa kata are basically identical to mine (we both follow Master Uechi's teaching). Is Tokushinryu a recent kobudo offshoot of isshinryu? Appreciate any more detailed info on this. DM me if you think this is too specific for General MA Talk.

 

[Krisxylove]

Is weapons training a part of your art's curriculum? If so, which ones? Is it integrated into your empty hand training? Is it historically tied to your art or is it an add on feature?

I have only learned parts of a couple staff forms so far and I have to say that I'm very happy for not solely staying with empty hand forms. It adds an entire element to the whole picture and I think it has even helped me with empty hand forms. It is even more satisfying in many ways.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not officially. Weapons have never been a part of traditional TKD. Outside the official curriculum, I do some teach some basic knife/stick/cane stuff.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

do you think the empty-handed techniques were heavily influenced by them?

Comb hair in weapon:

Comb hair in open hand.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm familiar with Ryuku, Matayoshi and Yamani kobudo but haven't heard of Tokushinryu and had to google it. It seems European isshinryu sensei, Lars Anderson, has some involvement with it. Also, their Chatan Yara no sai and Hama Higa no tuifa kata are basically identical to mine (we both follow Master Uechi's teaching). Is Tokushinryu a recent kobudo offshoot of isshinryu? Appreciate any more detailed info on this. DM me if you think this is too specific for General MA Talk.

It was created by Kensho Tokumura, a student of Tatsuo Shimabuku. He went on to become a high dan in Gojuryu as well. In recent times, as I am informed, he has traveled around Okinawa collecting up weapons systems that might otherwise be forgotten, and he has created and continues to refine kata around each of them, and has created a ryu which he calls Tokushinryu. It is popular in Europe, Okinawa, and North America. In the US, Master Jeff Perkins leads the system. Our sensei is highly ranked in Tokushinryu, and several of our karateka in our dojo hold dan rank in Tokushinryu as well (as mentioned, I do not). Masters Tokumura, Anderson, and Perkins have been to our dojo to teach and promote.

So technically it is not affiliated with Isshinryu, but one of the organizations, WUIKA, has sort of informally embraced it.

There are a few Youtube videos with Master Tokumura demonstrating various kata. They may not be up-to-the-minute because he does continue to develop the kata and the system.

MSISSHINRYU.COM | Isshinkai/Tomonokai

www.msisshinryu.com

 

[Hot Lunch]

Not in Shotokan, though I've heard of some independent Shotokan dojos teaching kobudo.

My last dojo taught weapons in a separate kobudo curriculum, and required a brown belt in kobudo in order to test for black belt in empty hand karate. That's one of the dozen reasons I left. If kobudo was merely optional, then it wouldn't have been a problem for me. It was a Shorin-ryu (Kobayashi) dojo, which is interesting, considering the fact that Chosin Chibana himself never trained in kobudo.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It was created by Kensho Tokumura, a student of Tatsuo Shimabuku. He went on to become a high dan in Gojuryu as well. In recent times, as I am informed, he has traveled around Okinawa collecting up weapons systems that might otherwise be forgotten, and he has created and continues to refine kata around each of them, and has created a ryu which he calls Tokushinryu. It is popular in Europe, Okinawa, and North America. In the US, Master Jeff Perkins leads the system. Our sensei is highly ranked in Tokushinryu, and several of our karateka in our dojo hold dan rank in Tokushinryu as well (as mentioned, I do not). Masters Tokumura, Anderson, and Perkins have been to our dojo to teach and promote.

So technically it is not affiliated with Isshinryu, but one of the organizations, WUIKA, has sort of informally embraced it.

There are a few Youtube videos with Master Tokumura demonstrating various kata. They may not be up-to-the-minute because he does continue to develop the kata and the system.

MSISSHINRYU.COM | Isshinkai/Tomonokai

www.msisshinryu.com

Thanks for the info.

 

[Kemposhot]

Yes, I train in Kempo, traditional weapons are required for all black belt ranks. Though, the emphasis in the training of these weapons is never a major part of the daily curriculum, in my opinion.

 

[Buka]

The one weapon I wished I had more training with is the cane. The reason should be obvious, we all age.

I’ve had some, I’m sure most of us have, but I haven’t had enough. Unfortunately, where I am at the moment doesn’t make further study of that particular skill possible.

As for weapons, the American Karate that I taught was restricted to knife and firearm, but only to advanced students. I like to think that I’m proficient in both, spent countless hours being schooled in both arts by good men.

But maybe I’m not as proficient as I think I am, I’ve never actually had to save lives with either.

A guy walked into my dojo one day, Joe Bonica. Nice guy, the kind of guy that if you were a serious Martial Artist you wanted to hear what he had to say and go to dinner with him.

He had a lot of skills, but especially in handgun disarming. I had some of that myself from Law Enforcement training. Joe took that to an entirely different level, a level that I knew absolutely nothing about, but sure as hell wanted to learn. Joe Bonica schooled my brains out over three years. I will forever be grateful.

Joe had one eye, lost the other in street combat. Let me say right here that he’s one of the finest gentleman I’ve ever met. He taught me so much I could never repay him. And, damn, if you pull a gun on him and don’t shoot him on the draw, your day is already over.

So anyway, knife and handgun for me. But about twenty percent of my students came from other arts. Some of them have schools of their own now. Some teach the Bo, some the Sai, some edged weapons and firearms. I don’t know the details. I taught them to think on their own and how to teach on their own. They appear to be doing a good job, but I don’t know, I’m six thousand miles away.

 

[Simfers]

We never touched any weapons in Tae Kwon Do, in either school I went to. They were entirely sports-based schools, I don't know if that was true of WTF schools at large, though, as Quebec schools under Chong Lee apparently had their own idiosyncracies.

Likewise in the Yoseikan Karate school I went to. I don't know if they were planning on ever introducing them, they were a fairly young school.

In Can Ryu Jiu Jitsu, we did some knife, kali stick and bo starting at black belt (some knife work was required for 2nd dan). I never had any interest personally, so I skipped them if I saw them on the schedule, I admit.

No weapons in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Unless you count the gi.

 

[drop bear]

I play with the concept during wrestling.