Does karate need to evolve?

[GojuTommy]

Have you ever talked to someone who does BJJ?

This is such a common occurrence, I don't know how you couldn't have heard of it. It would be like saying you've never heard of a boxer who's been hit in the head, or that you've never heard of a Karetaka who's learned a kata before.

People get a stripe and don't feel they've earned it yet. People get promoted to blue belt and get the blue belt blues and quit. They suddenly go from being treated like a white belt to being treated like a blue belt, which is hard when you're closer to some of the white belts than some of the more experienced blue belts.


Advancement with no particular direction doesn't tell you what to work on. If you have to memorize a form and learn it to a certain level of detail, then you know what to work on in order to advance.

"Learn this form and these 10 other rote combinations" is much more specific direction than "Get gud."

Several. One of which was a shipmate of mine.

 

[GojuTommy]

Have you ever talked to someone who does BJJ?

This is such a common occurrence, I don't know how you couldn't have heard of it. It would be like saying you've never heard of a boxer who's been hit in the head, or that you've never heard of a Karetaka who's learned a kata before.

People get a stripe and don't feel they've earned it yet. People get promoted to blue belt and get the blue belt blues and quit. They suddenly go from being treated like a white belt to being treated like a blue belt, which is hard when you're closer to some of the white belts than some of the more experienced blue belts.


Advancement with no particular direction doesn't tell you what to work on. If you have to memorize a form and learn it to a certain level of detail, then you know what to work on in order to advance.

"Learn this form and these 10 other rote combinations" is much more specific direction than "Get gud."

Where did you get this idea of advancement with no particular direction?
I’m not doing away with kyu or Dan rank requirements.

 

[skribs]

Where did you get this idea of advancement with no particular direction?
I’m not doing away with kyu or Dan rank requirements.

That's how BJJ tends to work. Most schools, you get your belt when your professor feels you deserve it. But a lot of people aren't really sure what it takes for their professor to feel they deserve it. This is a question I see answered by black belts on youtube and on forums all the time. "I just took gold in a tournament, I'm constantly beating some of the blue belts and all of the other white belts at my dojo, how come I'm not a blue belt yet?"

The problem is that they don't know what it is their professor wants from them. Does he feel they need more work on a specific position? Does he feel they're too focused on winning and not enough on improving? Does he feel they need more work on specific techniques? Do they maybe have a character problem? Is it something else (like time-in-grade)? Are they perhaps ready, but the professor has chosen not to promote them for some personal bias? It's very vague, and often not communicated well.

Compare that to my experience in Taekwondo, which I believe will line closer up with Karate. If you don't have your form memorized, you're not ready, and it's not really a discussion. If you're asked to do a tornado kick and half the time you can't figure out which way to go, and tornado kicks are part of your requirements for the next belt, then you're not ready. You have a checklist of things you need to know, and if you don't check all the boxes, you know what to work on: the blanks.

Some BJJ schools have a more structured curriculum for white belts. But many do not. Most do not have a structure after white belt. You learn the move of the day, and then you roll (spar). That's it. Some schools have a formalized belt test that puts you into different situations, and you have to accomplish a task. For example, you would be put in side control and have to either sweep or get to guard. You would be in side control and have to submit. You would be put in guard and have to pass. You would be put in a 90%-set submission and have to escape it. But many schools don't do that.

For someone that wants to be more like BJJ, I recommend actually trying BJJ and seeing if that's what you want your art to actually be like. It sounds more like what you're doing is listening to people in BJJ tell you why Karate is stupid and wanting Karate to be less stupid in their eyes. But it doesn't sound like you have any experience in how it actually works, since you think imposter syndrome doesn't exist, and you think it's common to have a clear direction on how to advance rank.

 

[MetalBoar]

So, I haven't trained in karate (unless you count kenpo or a little bit of tang soo do), but I'd like to. It hasn't happened because I haven't found anyone who seemed interested in teaching karate as a martial art, that was also doing it at a time and in a place that I could attend.

This seems spot on to me:

I think we experience different things. In the US martial arts seems a very different animal.....schools, children's birthday parties, marketing, billing and lots of franchises. In the UK we teach out of village and Scout halls, school sports halls, local sports centres.

Most of the commercial karate schools I've seen (and I've looked at a lot of karate schools) seem to be completely focused on selling kids classes and/or are watered down to appeal to the lowest common denominator, often tired parents who just want a fun workout that's at a convenient time and place that they're going to have to be anyway and has the added bonus that they can bond with their kids. I think it's great for parents to do karate with their kids, but there are consequences for the quality of the art if that's the entirety of your adult student population.

It often feels to me like the instructors have either given up on teaching anything that might cause discomfort, or never trained any other way themselves. I don't just mean sparring either, workouts that make your legs wobbly and drench your gi in sweat, seem to be rare. When I talk with the instructors that have been around since the '80's or longer I often get the sense that they've been beaten down by current sensibilities. When I ask about kumite or conditioning, I often I get a sigh and then hear things like, "Oh, yeah, nobody wants to go to work with bruises anymore". I'm not interested in losing teeth nor do I need to always train like a potential Olympian, but if I'm taking a martial art I'd usually like some emphasis on the martial part and I ought to really work up a sweat with some kind of frequency.

I have seen a few clubs and garage schools that seem to teach karate as a martial art, and I've seen a couple of commercial Kyokushin schools that did too, but it was obvious that they were almost clubs as well, not really for profit.

Unfortunately, I think the problem has become a self perpetuating matter of perception. People think that MMA, BJJ, etc. are the arts to do if you want to know how to fight and that karate is for kids and adults who want maybe a workout with the trappings of a martial art. Because that's the cultural perception, the people who want to learn a martial art go to MMA, etc. schools and people who want a fun workout go to karate schools.

If the karate school is a commercial venture, and the owner wants to keep the doors open, they have to cater to the workout folks. Which means that when someone who really wants to do a martial art comes in to view a class and they compare it to the MMA or Muay Thai school down the street, they go to the other school. Which then means the karate school has to cater even more to the workout folks and the kids. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I don't know that karate needs to evolve exactly, maybe it needs to devolve back to its origins, and if anything, take a page from MMA (when possible) and look for opportunities to spar with people from different arts. Not to do things the way the other arts do but to understand how to apply karate when you face someone doing something very different. Much like @JowGaWolf is doing with his kung fu. I don't know how to break that cycle, or if it can be broken, until there's a karate movie craze or a new hard contact karate sport format that takes off on pay per view. Either of those is going to be largely luck. I'm just musing out loud here, I don't feel like I've got any real answers.

I'm not trying to bag on karate. I think that every style of karate that I've watched has had something valuable to offer. I'd enjoy training with a good instructor. I just think that (in the US anyway) it's becoming, or has become, something less than it was and could be at many schools.

And, since this is a karate thread, as a side note, if anyone does know of a good karate school/club that actually has adult classes with adults in them, teaching quality, traditional karate, on the east side of Phoenix, AZ, please let me know!

 

[GojuTommy]

So, I haven't trained in karate (unless you count kenpo or a little bit of tang soo do), but I'd like to. It hasn't happened because I haven't found anyone who seemed interested in teaching karate as a martial art, that was also doing it at a time and in a place that I could attend.

This seems spot on to me:

Most of the commercial karate schools I've seen (and I've looked at a lot of karate schools) seem to be completely focused on selling kids classes and/or are watered down to appeal to the lowest common denominator, often tired parents who just want a fun workout that's at a convenient time and place that they're going to have to be anyway and has the added bonus that they can bond with their kids. I think it's great for parents to do karate with their kids, but there are consequences for the quality of the art if that's the entirety of your adult student population.

It often feels to me like the instructors have either given up on teaching anything that might cause discomfort, or never trained any other way themselves. I don't just mean sparring either, workouts that make your legs wobbly and drench your gi in sweat, seem to be rare. When I talk with the instructors that have been around since the '80's or longer I often get the sense that they've been beaten down by current sensibilities. When I ask about kumite or conditioning, I often I get a sigh and then hear things like, "Oh, yeah, nobody wants to go to work with bruises anymore". I'm not interested in losing teeth nor do I need to always train like a potential Olympian, but if I'm taking a martial art I'd usually like some emphasis on the martial part and I ought to really work up a sweat with some kind of frequency.

I have seen a few clubs and garage schools that seem to teach karate as a martial art, and I've seen a couple of commercial Kyokushin schools that did too, but it was obvious that they were almost clubs as well, not really for profit.

Unfortunately, I think the problem has become a self perpetuating matter of perception. People think that MMA, BJJ, etc. are the arts to do if you want to know how to fight and that karate is for kids and adults who want maybe a workout with the trappings of a martial art. Because that's the cultural perception, the people who want to learn a martial art go to MMA, etc. schools and people who want a fun workout go to karate schools.

If the karate school is a commercial venture, and the owner wants to keep the doors open, they have to cater to the workout folks. Which means that when someone who really wants to do a martial art comes in to view a class and they compare it to the MMA or Muay Thai school down the street, they go to the other school. Which then means the karate school has to cater even more to the workout folks and the kids. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I don't know that karate needs to evolve exactly, maybe it needs to devolve back to its origins, and if anything, take a page from MMA (when possible) and look for opportunities to spar with people from different arts. Not to do things the way the other arts do but to understand how to apply karate when you face someone doing something very different. Much like @JowGaWolf is doing with his kung fu. I don't know how to break that cycle, or if it can be broken, until there's a karate movie craze or a new hard contact karate sport format that takes off on pay per view. Either of those is going to be largely luck. I'm just musing out loud here, I don't feel like I've got any real answers.

I'm not trying to bag on karate. I think that every style of karate that I've watched has had something valuable to offer. I'd enjoy training with a good instructor. I just think that (in the US anyway) it's becoming, or has become, something less than it was and could be at many schools.

And, since this is a karate thread, as a side note, if anyone does know of a good karate school/club that actually has adult classes with adults in them, teaching quality, traditional karate, on the east side of Phoenix, AZ, please let me know!

I might be in tuscon in the next 6-9 months if you don’t mind a bit of a drive.

But largely yes you hit it on the head. But it’s not just the US. You can go on YouTube and find videos of karate schools in middle/near East practicing some wholly ridiculous techniques that are their interpretation of a kata movement. Techniques that even 1 minute of attempting on non-compliant opponent would show are ridiculous. When I say non-compliant, I mean they’re just pulling away, tensing muscle resist, etc. not even trying to actually fight back. But they’re doing techniques that could be proven useless after just 1 minute if drilling the students with non-compliant partners.

Sounds like we’d get along.

I’m of the opinion that it shouldn’t be called a martial art if the end result of training doesn’t teach you how to fight, even if that’s not your reason to train.

Go to Thailand and train in a MT gym there for two months for exercise, not only will you probably come home in the best shape of your life, but you’ll have a much better idea of how to fight than in 2 years at most karate schools.

Also school/club/whatever I use the term school as a general term.

 

[GojuTommy]

That's how BJJ tends to work. Most schools, you get your belt when your professor feels you deserve it. But a lot of people aren't really sure what it takes for their professor to feel they deserve it. This is a question I see answered by black belts on youtube and on forums all the time. "I just took gold in a tournament, I'm constantly beating some of the blue belts and all of the other white belts at my dojo, how come I'm not a blue belt yet?"

The problem is that they don't know what it is their professor wants from them. Does he feel they need more work on a specific position? Does he feel they're too focused on winning and not enough on improving? Does he feel they need more work on specific techniques? Do they maybe have a character problem? Is it something else (like time-in-grade)? Are they perhaps ready, but the professor has chosen not to promote them for some personal bias? It's very vague, and often not communicated well.

Compare that to my experience in Taekwondo, which I believe will line closer up with Karate. If you don't have your form memorized, you're not ready, and it's not really a discussion. If you're asked to do a tornado kick and half the time you can't figure out which way to go, and tornado kicks are part of your requirements for the next belt, then you're not ready. You have a checklist of things you need to know, and if you don't check all the boxes, you know what to work on: the blanks.

Some BJJ schools have a more structured curriculum for white belts. But many do not. Most do not have a structure after white belt. You learn the move of the day, and then you roll (spar). That's it. Some schools have a formalized belt test that puts you into different situations, and you have to accomplish a task. For example, you would be put in side control and have to either sweep or get to guard. You would be in side control and have to submit. You would be put in guard and have to pass. You would be put in a 90%-set submission and have to escape it. But many schools don't do that.

For someone that wants to be more like BJJ, I recommend actually trying BJJ and seeing if that's what you want your art to actually be like. It sounds more like what you're doing is listening to people in BJJ tell you why Karate is stupid and wanting Karate to be less stupid in their eyes. But it doesn't sound like you have any experience in how it actually works, since you think imposter syndrome doesn't exist, and you think it's common to have a clear direction on how to advance rank.

I was just talking about for promotion.
Keep rank requirements, but instead of having testing every 3 months and inviting students I think are ready for the next rank to test, I will simply do the advancement at the end of the class.

 

[GojuTommy]

Here’s an example of what i think is wrong with modern karate.
1. This is an advertisement, meaning they think this is their best and most impressive stuff
2. Compliant weapons self defense that would be disproven if even one of those guys grippe their weapons hard, or even slightly moved from their expected course of action.

 

[GojuTommy]

And to show this awful karate isn’t just in America.
Hands down, and one kid completely misses the slow swinging bag.

 

[GojuTommy]

If the attacker in this scenario even passively resisted the defender, they’d see how silly this little sequence is.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think kata are full of grappling and as a result karate should actively train grappling.

Agree. "Original" Okinawan karate contained a good amount of gabbing and take-downs but this was lost so as to not compete with Judo - a result of Japan's governing MA body's decision in the 1930's. Some moves were also removed in Japan due to them being thought too dangerous for young school kids. This art was retained however in many traditional Okinawan schools. Such techniques are still ingrained in kata, although many instructors have not discovered them as the true application of some kata moves has been "lost" over the past 80 years.

But karate does not require a hyper focus on kata and compliant drills to the detriment of other facets of training

I agree again. All facets of training should be employed. The lack of this is not a problem of karate though, but rather a matter of individual schools and the way they teach. So perhaps karate doesn't need to change, just the way some teach it.

 

[GojuTommy]

Agree. "Original" Okinawan karate contained a good amount of gabbing and take-downs but this was lost so as to not compete with Judo - a result of Japan's governing MA body's decision in the 1930's. Some moves were also removed in Japan due to them being thought too dangerous for young school kids. This art was retained however in many traditional Okinawan schools. Such techniques are still ingrained in kata, although many instructors have not discovered them as the true application of some kata moves has been "lost" over the past 80 years.

I agree again. All facets of training should be employed. The lack of this is not a problem of karate though, but rather a matter of individual schools and the way they teach. So perhaps karate doesn't need to change, just the way some teach it.

I am speaking of the community when I say ‘karate’ not what actually makes up karate.

The methods used need to change and evolve.
Miyagi said something along the lines of “we need to open our doors to the scrutiny of other styles, so that we may learn from them”
And that mind set has been lost in karate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know how to break that cycle, or if it can be broken, until there's a karate movie craze or a new hard contact karate sport format that takes off on pay per view. Either of those is going to be largely luck. I'm just musing out loud here, I don't feel like I've got any real answers.

Not sure if this helps with your thoughts but the one common feedback that I get from a variety of people that I spar with is that I can actually use some of the techniques. When I say some, I mean 2 or 3 three techniques that aren't found in basic kick boxing. It doesn't take much to get someone hopeful. It just has to be something out of the norm of what we normally see. Things tend to change once they see that the techniques are doable and you don't have to be a master to do many of them. It doesn't have to be flashy, it just has to be something that's out of the norm that is done during free sparring. You don't even have to go full contact either. Start with the basics and work from there. Learn how to do that stuff during sparring and people will be amazed.

Here’s an example of what i think is wrong with modern karate.
1. This is an advertisement, meaning they think this is their best and most impressive stuff
2. Compliant weapons self defense that would be disproven if even one of those guys grippe their weapons hard, or even slightly moved from their expected course of action.

When I used to teach, I made a promise to show my students actually using kung fu an not just drilling. I think that's what most people want to know. It means more if someone can see students use kung fu. The message should always be "look what my students can do" the student doesn't have to be the best, but it's gotta be more than just the common stuff they see. A good example would be this video. It's not the best display of kung fu skill, but if you watched this video and thought "I could do that" then it has served it's purpose. If anyone has ever watched any of my videos and thought you couldn't do what I do, then I have failed in getting your interest to give it a try.

It Doesn't seem like a lot until you break it down.
1. The instructors train application
2. Sometimes the students can do a technique against an instructor (the guy who falls is an instructor. I catch a nice backfist to my face).
3. No one is dying from the punches and kicks and it sounds like they are having fun.
4. There are different levels of students some are better than others
5. Nothing looks magical or super human

If I tell how the train works, it will make sense. I have a saying. If I can't stop the slow stuff then I probably wouldn't be able to stop it, if it comes in fast.

I think this is the approach to gaining interest that similar to the original function of a Martial Arts fighting system. I don't like videos that only show application drill or teachers performing. For me personally, if I go to a Martial Arts school, then I want to know what's possible for me.

 

[Gyakuto]

Karate is evolving, but like human evolution, it happens almost imperceptibly. Compare grainy videos of Funakoshi with some current JKA instructor and the evolution is very obvious.

 

[Tez3]

Lol, yes it was once part of karate. But agree to disagree about that I guess

Which karate style are you thinking about? It was never part of traditional karate, it was a spin off from karate full contact competitions with some boxing and MT thrown in.
I've been training karate for 52 years, no kickboxing just plenty of hard sparring. Karate has changed over the years but when you say you want to change it I don't think you understand what it is for.

 

[Gyakuto]

Miyagi said something along the lines of “we need to open our doors to the scrutiny of other styles, so that we may learn from them”

Karate Kid/Cobra Kai/Mr Miyagi aren’t real, GojuTommy 😉 (THIS IS A JOKE)

 

[punisher73]

Here is a quote from Chojun Miyagi, founder of Goju-Ryu back in 1936 talking about this exact same issue. This is still what we are seeing today. People join "karate" for different reasons. Some want the socializing, some like the tradition, some like the physical aspect of it, some want it to learn how to fight. If your goal is to only learn how to fight, that is a very small niche if you want to have a brick and mortar school and pay the bills. In the US, most of those schools will have separate classes and market to the kids and other reasons to pay the bills. Look at boxing gyms (at least in the US), how many are actual hardcore gyms still versus all of the "boxing fitness" gyms? How many are starting to blend to keep the doors open for the guys who do want to learn to box?

“As to karate clothes, we need to agree a standard karate uniform soon; as we often have problems. As for the terminology of karate, I think we will have to control it in the future. I have been making new technical words and promoting them. Regarding kata, I think traditional kata should be preserved. As for the nationwide promotion of karate, I think we had better create new Kata. We will create both offensive and defensive kata which are suitable for students of primary schools, high schools, universities and youth schools. Mainly, we, the members of karate promotion association, will make new kata and promote them throughout Japan; now there is the Physical Education Association and the Okinawan branch of Butokukai. We also have senior students of karate and those who are interested in karate. We, therefore, cooperate with them to study and promote karate. If such organizations and experts study karate thoroughly, we can make a decision about the karate name issue and karate uniform relatively soon. I think the old kata should be preserved without any modification while new kata should be invented, otherwise I am convinced that no one will be interested in karate in the future.” – Chojun Miyagi, 25th of October 1936 (minutes from “The Meeting of the Masters”).

 

[Tez3]

I am speaking of the community when I say ‘karate’ not what actually makes up karate.

The methods used need to change and evolve.
Miyagi said something along the lines of “we need to open our doors to the scrutiny of other styles, so that we may learn from them”
And that mind set has been lost in karate.

What I'm finding hard to fathom is your interest and knowledge of karate, everything you post is against generic 'karate'. I want to know from what experience you criticise karate, I'm not saying there isn't room from improvement but some of the things you criticise aren't actually a thing.

Punisher's excellent post gives one founder's view on his art, I know Funikoshi had a great dislike of sparring and Wado Ryu's founder had a huge experience of Japanese Jujitsu which is reflected in the style. I don't know much about other styles founders so I don't comment on them.

The karate "community' is as varied as the United States or the UK, different styles mean different mindsets, different ways of training, different philosophies. Kata and kihons are a great example of this. Kihons are basic fundamentals, used to train techniques, breathing and position not to be mistaken for SD training, not all styles use them. Kata, again used for different reasons, training, meditation, fitness, competition etc. Many use Bunkai to unlock them others don't.

Not all karate does self defence training as in RBSD, some do though. Non resistant training in many styles of martial arts is a problem even in classes advertised as purely self defence. It's something we should all be shouting about.

Sparring, very few if any styles don't spar. For some it's points type sparring for others is semi or full contact. Here in the UK there is now a much bigger understanding of brain damage caused by even 'soft' blows to the head and how wearing head best doesn't mitigate it so full contact us now carefully managed, it's the same in boxing, kick boxing and MT.

Chojun Miyagi was talking specifically about looking at other karate styles, something a lot of us do especially if you enter open sparring and Kata competitions as well as go to seminars. ( it was at a seminar I saw a no touch KO, nice piece of theatre lol, did a Bangra warm up then learnt about Sikh weapons) at others I learnt from Aikido, TKD (that was one of our seminars, the TKD instructor was a Gurkha, all Gurkha recruits learn TKD here) Japanese Jujutso and even some weapons. I could have learnt some Capoiera but that was beyond me lol. I also learnt about Judo kata, that was very interesting. I don't know how many practice it though.
You, I think, want us to look at other styles of martial arts which you seem to think will improve 'karate '. I'm not really sure how. Most groups from Judo through TKD to karate grade the same way, because it works. The system of course comes from Judo. The usual 'time' constraint is that one must have spent a certain amount of time in a rank before heading again not that you grade regardless.

Could you expand on what you train in and how it works? This might give us an idea of why you are so critical of karate. It would help me to understand where you get your information on karate from, I suspect as one poster has suggested it's because you've been told that karate is useless by others from an MMA/BJJ background.

 

[GojuTommy]

Karate Kid/Cobra Kai/Mr Miyagi aren’t real, GojuTommy 😉 (THIS IS A JOKE)

Umm…chojun Miyagi is a real person but ok.

 

[GojuTommy]

Which karate style are you thinking about? It was never part of traditional karate, it was a spin off from karate full contact competitions with some boxing and MT thrown in.
I've been training karate for 52 years, no kickboxing just plenty of hard sparring. Karate has changed over the years but when you say you want to change it I don't think you understand what it is for.

Traditional karate is a made up thing.
All of our ‘traditions’ are primarily 60-70 years old…which guess what…is about the same timeframe that karateka began developing kickboxing in the US and Japan.

 

[GojuTommy]

Karate is evolving, but like human evolution, it happens almost imperceptibly. Compare grainy videos of Funakoshi with some current JKA instructor and the evolution is very obvious.

As I said in my original post karate was constantly evolving in the past and not ‘almost imperceptibly’ but quite noticeably. Te from 1890 was very different from Te of 1910 which was noticeably from the karate of the 30s, which was very different from karate of the 60s which was very different from the karate of the 80s…but the karate of 2022, seems to be largely the same as the karate of the 90s