Documented Origins per Chen Zheglei Taijiquan

Xue Sheng

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This post by Marlon form and this old post by mine on taiji families in combination with looking at Chen Zhenglei's version from his book "Chen Style Taijiquan Sword and Broadsword" I thought maybe this would be of interest to some

Origin of Chen

Chen style starts with Chen Wangting - 9th generation (1600-1680)
All other styles of today come from him but currently the Zhaobao people are disputing this where they once agreed with it

Origin of Yang style

Chen Wangting
Chen Ruxin
Chen Dakun
Chen Shantong
Chen Bingwang
Chen Changxing
Yang Luchan (1799-1872) Yang Style Taijiquan

Origin of Zhaobao

Chen Wangting
Chen Ruxin
Chen Suole
Chen Xunru
Chen Jingbo
Chen Gongzhao
Chen Youben
Chen Qingping (1795 – 1868)
He Zhaoyuan (1810-1890) Zhaobao Style Taijiquan

Origin of Wu Style

Chen Wangting
Chen Ruxin
Chen Dakun
Chen Shantong
Chen Bingwang
Chen Changxing
Yang Luchan (Yang Style Taijiquan)
Yang Banhou
Yang Quanyou
Wu Jianquan (1870-1942) Wu Style Taijiquan – North/South

Origin Wu/Hao style

Chen Wangting
Chen Ruxin
Chen Suole
Chen Xunru
Chen Jingbo
Chen Gongzhao
Chen Youben
Chen Qingping
Li Yiyu
Hao Weizhen (1842-1920) Hao Style Taijiquan

Origin of Sun Style (note Sun Style is also made up of Baguazghang and Xingyiquan)

Chen Wangting
Chen Ruxin
Chen Suole
Chen Xunru
Chen Jingbo
Chen Gongzhao
Chen Youben
Chen Qingping
Li Yiyu
Hao Weizhen (Hao style Taijiquan)
Sun Lutang (1861 - 1933) Sun Style Taijiquan - Birth Name - Sun Fuquan

The above is from Chen Zhenglei the rst if from my research into this

Question on the Origin of Wu Style Taijiquan

The Origin of Wu per the Yang Family is

Chen Wangting
Chen Ruxin
Chen Dakun
Chen Shantong
Chen Bingwang
Chen Changxing
Yang Luchan (Yang Style Taijiquan)
Yang Banhou (1837-1890)
Wu Quanyuo (1834–1902) Wu Style Taijquan

The Origin of Wu per the Wu Family is

Chen Wangting
Chen Ruxin
Chen Dakun
Chen Shantong
Chen Bingwang
Chen Changxing
Yang Luchan (1799-1872) Yang Style Taijiquan
Wu Quanyuo (1834–1902) Wu Style Taijquan

Interesting point I have read that Wu Quanyuo it listed on the tomb of Yang Banhou, which says he was Yang Banhou's student. Also if you look at the current Yang family lineage it does not list a Yang Quanyou at all the only person in the lineage after Yang Banhou is Yang Zhaopen (Liang Xiao). But then until very recently they claimed there was no family of Yang Shaohou either. They have since added many after Yang Shaohou

Question on the Origin of zhaobao Style Taijiquan

One lineage says (and I am sure there are others)

Chen Wangting
Chen Ruxin
Chen Suole
Chen Xunru
Chen Jingbo
Chen Gongzhao
Chen Youben
Chen Qingping (1795 – 1868) Zhaobao Style Taijiquan

Another says the Chen family has absolutly nothing to do with it.

Birth Order of the founders and alleged founders, not the necessarily the order of the founding of the style.

Chen Wangting (1600-1680) Chen Style Taijiquan
Chen Qingping (1795 – 1868) Zhaobao Style Taijiquan
Yang Luchan (1799-1872) Yang Style Taijiquan
He Zhaoyuan (1810-1890) Zhaobao Style Taijiquan
Wu Quanyuo (1834–1902) Wu Style Taijquan
Hao Weizhen (1842-1920) Hao Style Taijiquan
Sun Lutang (1861 - 1933) Sun Style Taijiquan
Wu Jianquan (1870-1942) Wu Style Taijiquan



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Xue Sheng

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Sun style Taijiquan is a combination of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Hao style Taijiquan

What else went into Sun Style Taijiquan

Sun Lutang (Sun Fuquan) given the name Sun Lutang by Cheng Tinghua

Sun Lutang's Xingyiquan Lineage

Yue Fei (1103-1142) said to be founder of Xingyiquan but there is no documented proof to support this
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Ji Jike (1620-1680)
Cao Jiwu (1669-?)
Dai Longbang (1713-1802)
Li Feiyu (1809-1890)
Guo Yunshen (1820-1901)
Li Kuiyuan (?)
Sun Lutang (1861-1932)

Sun Lutang also trained with Guo Yushen after training with Li Kuiyuan

Sun Lutang's Baguazhang Lineage

Dong Hai Chang (1798-1882)
Cheng Ting Hua (1848-1900)
Sun Lu Tang (1861-1932)
 
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Xue Sheng

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OOPS TYPE-OH

Dong Hai Chang (1798-1882) shoud have been Dong Hai-Chuan (1798-1882)

Sorry About that :asian:
 
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Brian R. VanCise

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Thanks Xue!
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Formosa Neijia

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Wow, that was a great writeup. Thanks for that.

There are several problems with the idea that CZL proposes.

One, is form the only thing being considered? If so, then it's fairly easy to see that Yang came from Chen. But if the emphasis or neigong elements that set Yang apart from Chen are considered, then it's fairly easy to see that something quite different caused Yang to diverge from Chen. The two styles ARE different, so where did that difference come from? Chen people never like this discussion.

Second, the Zhaobao people may have a point if you consider that perhaps Chen Wan-ting didn't act alone in formulating the taijiquan but had help form the Li brothers.

Look here: http://formosaneijia.com/2007/03/24/new-theory-on-development-of-chen-taiji/

This explanation looks plausible, making the Zhaobao theory plausible as well.
 
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Xue Sheng

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Wow, that was a great writeup. Thanks for that.

There are several problems with the idea that CZL proposes.

One, is form the only thing being considered? If so, then it's fairly easy to see that Yang came from Chen. But if the emphasis or neigong elements that set Yang apart from Chen are considered, then it's fairly easy to see that something quite different caused Yang to diverge from Chen. The two styles ARE different, so where did that difference come from? Chen people never like this discussion.

Second, the Zhaobao people may have a point if you consider that perhaps Chen Wan-ting didn't act alone in formulating the taijiquan but had help form the Li brothers.

Look here: http://formosaneijia.com/2007/03/24/new-theory-on-development-of-chen-taiji/

This explanation looks plausible, making the Zhaobao theory plausible as well.

Actually I agree

I do not really believe the Chen Origin story anymore than I believe the Yang Origin story that takes you to Zhang Sen Feng. This is just a representation of one of the MANY lineage charts. As I posted the Chen family, the yang family and the Wu family do not appear to agree on exactly were Wu comes from.

I have felt that if you take a much older Taijiqigong and combine it with paoqui and throw in a bit of something that may or may not have come form an old Taoist in the form of the 13 or greater postures you get Taiji but that is just my way of looking at it with absolutely no historic proof to back it up other than Paochui and a qigong called taijiqigong existed prior to taijiquan.

There is a bagua from Dong Hai Chuan and there is another that is called Yin Yang that very likely may not be from Dong Hai Chuan which says that there may have been a teacher prior to Dong Hai Chuan just that Dong Hai chuan was the more famous and a more prolific teacher.

No reason that the similarities between Chen and Zhaobao are not so much that Zhaobao comes from Chen but that they share an origin. Hell they are not all that far apart in location
 
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Xue Sheng

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I wanted to add that my feeling on lineage is that it is nice to know and I find them very intersting but beyond that it does not mean much. It can be a useful tool in exposing charlatans. The more recent Yang Fukui for example and someone non-Chen claiming lineage to a Chen family teacher who never taught outside the Chen family kind of thing, but it is not really worth the arguments that lineage discussions sometimes turn into if for no other reason the main taiji families cant agree at times.

Sadly the people that really knew are no longer with us or those that really know are old school CMA and not talking much. It amazes me how much my Yang Taijiquan Sifu knows about who did and did not train with Yang Chengfu it also amazes me how much he knows about who trained with Yang Shou Zhong and my Sifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh. But even he says he doubts anyone knows exactly how many people Yang Chengfu actually trained.

And what Chen Zhenglei wrote I am sure he feels he is being 100% correct based on what he has been told by and read form his family. However it is possible that Yang Quanyou is a type-oh (next time I see him, if I remeber, I will ask) and it was suppose to be Wu Quanyou. But I learned the hard way in a post on another page that in these situations you NEVER jump to such conclusions. I once out a person named Chen in the family lineage and I found that although his name was Chen and he learned taiji form the Chen family he was most certainly not a member of the Chen taiji family

 

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Does anyone know or have a good theory one what Chen form Yang Luchan learned?

Respectfully,
Marlon
 
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Xue Sheng

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Does anyone know or have a good theory one what Chen form Yang Luchan learned?

Respectfully,
Marlon

Not sure but likely Laojia Yilu before it was separated into Laojia Yilu and Laojia Erlu and then Laojia Yilu may have later been shortened as well.

From what I have read, ad I have no real proof of this, a much longer Chen form that was the origin of Laojia Yilu and Erlu.
 
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