Do you want rank or knowledge???

[RRouuselot]

I came across this website and found it VERY interesting!

http://www.smoka-usa.com/

Click on the Weakest Link

 

[Makalakumu]

Has DKI suffered under these claims?

 

[RRouuselot]

Has DKI suffered under these claims?

What do you mean by "suffered"?

 

[bignick]

I think there is a bit of a problem with some of the logic in some statements. Like, "Why would any Grand Master demonstrate a kata? They wouldn't...."

I just don't see the reasoning behind that statement...why wouldn't he? Just seems to be a statement without any weight behind it...

 

[RRouuselot]

I think there is a bit of a problem with some of the logic in some statements. Like, "Why would any Grand Master demonstrate a kata? They wouldn't...."

I just don't see the reasoning behind that statement...why wouldn't he? Just seems to be a statement without any weight behind it...

Actually given the mind set of most Okinawa masters I have encountered I can understand his comments.

High ranking elder Okinawa Karate Masters are not really in the habit of performing like “trained seals”, giving private demos or private instruction to people they don’t know.



One thing that has to be considered is the martial culture in Okinawa is very different from that in the west and until one trains in Okinawa or Japan it is really hard to describe and document all the differences much of which is conveyed non-verbally in the first place. A major difference is many Okinawa dojo are not run in the “business sense” that western dojo are…..they don’t really try to “recruit” students by giving a demo of their style. This has to do with "hinkaku"......It was also mentioned that Soken was rather ill, so much so that he had to return to Okinawa.

 

[Adept]

Oh noes! He said he spent three hours with a guy, and he might have lied about it!



Storm, meet teacup.

 

[RRouuselot]

Oh noes! He said he spent three hours with a guy, and he might have lied about it!



Storm, meet teacup.

3 hours of “training” with Soken and "video taping" 6 seminars of my teacher... .....all that training is definitely worthy of the title “Grand Master”…… :barf:

 

[RRouuselot]

Here is an example of the martial culture difference between the US and Japan/Okinawa.



Several years ago I was at a Budo seminar and was walking with my sai in hand to the dojo area intent on training when I was approached by a rather obnoxious “Nisei” (second generation abroad Japanese) and he said “Hey my wife wants to see how Sai are used. Can you show her something?” I said “no, sorry”. He kept asking “she really wants to see something…..just one flip or something…come on…” I looked him straight in the eye and replied: “I don’t train in martial arts for others amusement. If your wife wants to be entertained tell her to go rent a movie”

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Here is an example of the martial culture difference between the US and Japan/Okinawa.



Several years ago I was at a Budo seminar and was walking with my sai in hand to the dojo area intent on training when I was approached by a rather obnoxious “Nisei” (second generation abroad Japanese) and he said “Hey my wife wants to see how Sai are used. Can you show her something?” I said “no, sorry”. He kept asking “she really wants to see something…..just one flip or something…come on…” I looked him straight in the eye and replied: “I don’t train in martial arts for others amusement. If your wife wants to be entertained tell her to go rent a movie”

I'm sorry but that sounds like unconscionable rudeness on your part - at least in how you describe the situation. Something along the line of "... I'm sorry but I really don't do exhibitions, please excuse me now" might have better represented your art.

 

[RRouuselot]

I'm sorry but that sounds like unconscionable rudeness on your part - at least in how you describe the situation. Something along the line of "... I'm sorry but I really don't do exhibitions, please excuse me now" might have better represented your art.

Obviously nuance doesn’t travel over the Internet well. My reaction was appropriate after being asked about 4 or 5 times and politely refusing .

The point I was alluding to is that many westerners think martial arts are for performing and entertainment. The guy asking me to “perform” for his wife’s amusement like some kind of “trained seal” should have stopped asking after the first “no, sorry”, but he instead he chose to be a persistent *** didn’t, even though he was a martial artist himself and should have understood the where I was coming from.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Obviously nuance doesn’t travel over the Internet well. My reaction was appropriate after being asked about 4 or 5 times and politely refusing .

The point I was alluding to is that many westerners think martial arts are for performing and entertainment. The guy asking me to “perform” for his wife’s amusement like some kind of “trained seal” should have stopped asking after the first “no, sorry”, but he instead he chose to be a persistent *** didn’t, even though he was a martial artist himself and should have understood the where I was coming from.

Agreed on both points, that's why I put the disclaimer about "sounding" in.

 

[Makalakumu]

What do you mean by "suffered"?

Have numbers in the organization dropped? Have people begun asking some of these questions inside the organization? Has their credability been damaged?

Putting your own opinions aside, do MAists in Okinawa and Japan regard Mr. Dillman and his art with respect?

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Have numbers in the organization dropped?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Have people begun asking some of these questions inside the organization?

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Has their credability been damaged?

4)[font=&quot] [/font]Putting your own opinions aside, do MAists in Okinawa and Japan regard Mr. Dillman and his art with respect?

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I wouldn’t know I haven’t taken any statistics. Have you?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Again, how would I know? I am not a member and do not want to be.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]I would say Dillman’s has since he claimed he got “secrets” (scrolls, techniques, etc) from Soken and several sources that were there at his 1 and only meeting with Soken state he never received such instruction or scrolls. I found Dillman’s story hard to believe the first time I heard it since Soken only spoke Spanish and Okinawan dialect.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]I would say most that come in contact with him do not. I know of several specific teachers (that shall go nameless) that do not.

 

[Makalakumu]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I wouldn’t know I haven’t taken any statistics. Have you?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Again, how would I know? I am not a member and do not want to be.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]I would say Dillman’s has since he claimed he got “secrets” (scrolls, techniques, etc) from Soken and several sources that were there at his 1 and only meeting with Soken state he never received such instruction or scrolls. I found Dillman’s story hard to believe the first time I heard it since Soken only spoke Spanish and Okinawan dialect.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]I would say most that come in contact with him do not. I know of several specific teachers (that shall go nameless) that do not.

Thank you for your answers, Sir.

 

[Sin]

Here is an example of the martial culture difference between the US and Japan/Okinawa.



Several years ago I was at a Budo seminar and was walking with my sai in hand to the dojo area intent on training when I was approached by a rather obnoxious “Nisei” (second generation abroad Japanese) and he said “Hey my wife wants to see how Sai are used. Can you show her something?” I said “no, sorry”. He kept asking “she really wants to see something…..just one flip or something…come on…” I looked him straight in the eye and replied: “I don’t train in martial arts for others amusement. If your wife wants to be entertained tell her to go rent a movie”

I get the "awe come on and show me something" deal all the time from people, expecally if my school goes to the park or something during the summer for class. Anywho I agree with your remark to them to an extent, if the guy was being an a-hole he deserved it.....But what I would have said/done was give him a business card of my Sensei's and tell him if he wants to see something, he should take a trial class at my school." Then if the guy really would like to learn something( or his wife) he'll take up the class or will be gone in one or two classes. I have used this technique before and most of the time...you will never hear from the guy again......kinda like the way you treat Jahova Witnesses that go door to door LOL. No offence to any Jahova Witnesses around here.

 

[ppko]

Have numbers in the organization dropped? Have people begun asking some of these questions inside the organization? Has their credability been damaged?

Putting your own opinions aside, do MAists in Okinawa and Japan regard Mr. Dillman and his art with respect?

No sir numbers have not dropped.
People don't have to ask questions we know what is the truth, some of the people in the organization have seen these documents that Mr. Soken gave to Mr. Dillman (I am not one of them). This doesn't damage our credibility one bit, everyone has oppinions.

 

[Danjo]

Actually given the mind set of most Okinawa masters I have encountered I can understand his comments.

High ranking elder Okinawa Karate Masters are not really in the habit of performing like “trained seals”, giving private demos or private instruction to people they don’t know.



One thing that has to be considered is the martial culture in Okinawa is very different from that in the west and until one trains in Okinawa or Japan it is really hard to describe and document all the differences much of which is conveyed non-verbally in the first place. A major difference is many Okinawa dojo are not run in the “business sense” that western dojo are…..they don’t really try to “recruit” students by giving a demo of their style. This has to do with "hinkaku"......It was also mentioned that Soken was rather ill, so much so that he had to return to Okinawa.

Yet we do see video of Chosei Motubu performing the entire Motubu-ryu. Also, The Mabuna doing the same for his art. Choki Motubu had himself photographed performing kata and techniques, Funakoshi did the same thing and gave public demos of kata all the time. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about it.

 

[ppko]

Yet we do see video of Chosei Motubu performing the entire Motubu-ryu. Also, The Mabuna doing the same for his art. Choki Motubu had himself photographed performing kata and techniques, Funakoshi did the same thing and gave public demos of kata all the time. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about it.

Well put sir

 

[GAB]

Yet we do see video of Chosei Motubu performing the entire Motubu-ryu. Also, The Mabuna doing the same for his art. Choki Motubu had himself photographed performing kata and techniques, Funakoshi did the same thing and gave public demos of kata all the time. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about it.

Hi,

I see where Robert is coming from. Both of your examples are not reflecting what Robert said or is discussing (IMO)

Funakoshi was on the hard sell to Japanese persons (asked or told to do so by Gov't)...

Choki was in compitition with Funakoshi at the time...

Quite a different time and place, I doubt very seriously if anyone would have just asked either to perform for them solo...Choki would not have understood (did not speak japanese very well), Funakoshi would not have listened...(neither of them spoke or knew English)...

Just thoughts of my own...Also, Knowledge is far superior to Rank...

Regards, Gary

 

[CountPike]

Dont actually get what this post is about but I would want knowledge and then rank. I would only want a grade if i was limited by not having it