Do you know anyone with a black belt in both Kyokushin and Goju Ryu ?

[ronki23]

As far as I know, Kyokushin came from Goju Ryu but developed the 'Go' (hard) aspect. Does that mean there is no 'Ju' (soft) aspect in Kyokushin ?

Is GoJu Ryu pointfighting and Kyokushin continuos ?

I thought Mas Oyama had a black belt in judo so why aren't sweeps and throws allowed in Kyokushin competition ?

 

[_Simon_]

Hi! I reached 4th kyu in Kyokushinkai (although trained in it for almost a decade so could have reached a higher grade but chose to take my sweet time), and am currently black belt in Goju. Will try and assist here with what I've experienced!

As far as I know, Kyokushin came from Goju Ryu but developed the 'Go' (hard) aspect. Does that mean there is no 'Ju' (soft) aspect in Kyokushin ?

Yes Kyokushin was born out of Sosai Oyama's experience in Shotokan and Goju. I believe it was more Goju Kai/Yamaguchi (and also from this mysterious fellow named So Nei Chu who I still want to find more information about!!).

I personally experienced little to no "ju" in our Kyokushin training. It really tends to focus alot on strength, power, resilience, spirit, perseverance, heavy contact and so on. We did however work on developing great footwork and sabaki, so it wasn't all just rigid and take every hit. But we didn't focus on internal energy, sensitivity drills or nuance. Just hard hard training, heavy repetitive kihon, kata (no bunkai/oyo) and spirited kumite.

Different strands of Kyokushin may focus on "ju"-related training, and I believe Kancho Hatsuo Royama in Kyokushinkan is big into Taikiken/Ikken training which would awesome to explore.

Is GoJu Ryu pointfighting and Kyokushin continuos ?

Different Goju schools will be different, many different lineages etc. Our school are continuous, and most Kyokushin I believe would be continuous sparring as it is reflected in tournaments. Some Goju Kai groups are big into competing so practice alot of point sparring.

I thought Mas Oyama had a black belt in judo so why aren't sweeps and throws allowed in Kyokushin competition ?

Great question, I wish I knew! Perhaps that's why Enshin and Kudo came about... to bring that aspect back into Kyokushin?

 

[Judo boi]

IFAIK Kyokushin had its base in Shotokan, as Oyama originally studied with Funakoshi. It is also blended with Go Ju and Muay Thai
As for sweeps/throws I'm pretty sure take downs such as de ashi barai are allowed in competition. Im not a KK black belt, but have trained at a KK dojo for about 2 years and we always incorporated sweeps into sparring. Being a Judo bb helped me alot in this regard lol

 

[ronki23]

Hi! I reached 4th kyu in Kyokushinkai (although trained in it for almost a decade so could have reached a higher grade but chose to take my sweet time), and am currently black belt in Goju. Will try and assist here with what I've experienced!


Yes Kyokushin was born out of Sosai Oyama's experience in Shotokan and Goju. I believe it was more Goju Kai/Yamaguchi (and also from this mysterious fellow named So Nei Chu who I still want to find more information about!!).

I personally experienced little to no "ju" in our Kyokushin training. It really tends to focus alot on strength, power, resilience, spirit, perseverance, heavy contact and so on. We did however work on developing great footwork and sabaki, so it wasn't all just rigid and take every hit. But we didn't focus on internal energy, sensitivity drills or nuance. Just hard hard training, heavy repetitive kihon, kata (no bunkai/oyo) and spirited kumite.

Different strands of Kyokushin may focus on "ju"-related training, and I believe Kancho Hatsuo Royama in Kyokushinkan is big into Taikiken/Ikken training which would awesome to explore.




Different Goju schools will be different, many different lineages etc. Our school are continuous, and most Kyokushin I believe would be continuous sparring as it is reflected in tournaments. Some Goju Kai groups are big into competing so practice alot of point sparring.



Great question, I wish I knew! Perhaps that's why Enshin and Kudo came about... to bring that aspect back into Kyokushin?

Does that mean Yamaguchi is the real founder of Kyokushin? Because he taught Mas Oyama and Yamaguchi founded the continuos fighting format ?

What about (the real) Miyagi ? He was the founder but it says Yamaguchi founded the governing body.

 

[ronki23]

IFAIK Kyokushin had its base in Shotokan, as Oyama originally studied with Funakoshi. It is also blended with Go Ju and Muay Thai
As for sweeps/throws I'm pretty sure take downs such as de ashi barai are allowed in competition. Im not a KK black belt, but have trained at a KK dojo for about 2 years and we always incorporated sweeps into sparring. Being a Judo bb helped me alot in this regard lol

I don't agree about the Muay Thai part. It was created to defeat Muay Thai because the Shotokan and Goju Ryu guys would get their butts kicked whenever they went to Thailand so Mas Oyama developed Kyokushin: he took 3 fighters to Thailand and 2 of the Japanese won. Goju Ryu already has leg kicks as far as I know.

Maybe Oyama started off with Shotokan ? The bulk of Kyokushin is Goju Ryu but in a continuos format.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I know someone who has a black belt in BJJ and is a brown belt in Kyokushin working on his black. He is also a modern wushu and sanda shifu

 

[isshinryuronin]

Kyokushin had its base in Shotokan, as Oyama originally studied with Funakoshi.

NOT Gichin Funakoshi - one of his sons.

Maybe Oyama started off with Shotokan

Yes. According to Wikipedia, about 4 years, then switched to goju for several years.

I get the impression he never really got too deep into either art. I couldn't find any info regarding continuing study under a master for any length of time. Maybe he spent some time with Yamaguchi as well? Like Motobu, he was a brawler, and like Musashi, spent time training on his own. This background resulted in Kyokushin.

 

[Buka]

I’m a big fan of Koyokushin in general and was a big fan of Oyama in particular.

 

[_Simon_]

Does that mean Yamaguchi is the real founder of Kyokushin? Because he taught Mas Oyama and Yamaguchi founded the continuos fighting format ?

What about (the real) Miyagi ? He was the founder but it says Yamaguchi founded the governing body.

No definitely not. Yamaguchi taught Oyama but Yamaguchi very much stuck with Goju. Kyokushin truly is its own thing, born from what Oyama felt should be emphasised in karate. Oyama and Yamaguchi had many chats and had different ideas about training. I personally wouldn't even say that Kyokushin is a blend of Shotokan and Goju. It contains their katas albeit heavily modified (in fact parts of the Pinan katas more resemble Shorin ryu way of practicing them, apart from the high side kicks parts haha), but it is its own thing with influences from each art.

Miyagi gave Yamaguchi the task of spreading the art in Japan (and ended up spreading it further). Gogen founded the International Karate-do Goju Kai Association.

 

[_Simon_]

I get the impression he never really got too deep into either art. I couldn't find any info regarding continuing study under a master for any length of time. Maybe he spent some time with Yamaguchi as well? Like Motobu, he was a brawler, and like Musashi, spent time training on his own. This background resulted in Kyokushin.

Apparently Oyama reached 8th Dan under Gogen Yamaguchi (although different sources say 6th or 7th Dan), and 4th Dan in Shotokan, as well as 4th Dan in judo. I think he definitely trained quite extensively, but had different ideas which led to him create his own thing which he felt represented what was most important in training.

 

[_Simon_]

Interesting interview with Goshi Yamaguchi sort of on this topic:

Goshi Yamaguchi on Mas Oyama and Kyokushin Karate - The Martial Way

This is an excerpt from an interview Graham Noble conducted with Goshi Yamaguchi, the third son of Gogen Yamaguchi (teacher of Mas Oyama). This interview took place at Potter’s Leisure Resort, near Great Yarmouth, England. 14th July 2008, IKGA European Gasshaku. They of course discussed Goju-ryu...

the-martial-way.com

 

[isshinryuronin]

Apparently Oyama reached 8th Dan under Gogen Yamaguchi (although different sources say 6th or 7th Dan), and 4th Dan in Shotokan, as well as 4th Dan in judo. I think he definitely trained quite extensively, but had different ideas which led to him create his own thing which he felt represented what was most important in training.

It seems there is very little specific info on the web regarding his training. Wiki had the most specific info but limited to what I posted. Compared to other karate notables' biographies available on the web, his is rather shallow regarding training details, especially since most of his study was post WWII. Surely, if he had all these high dans there would be more of a paper/internet trail. What years did he study under Yamaguchi? for example. While I draw no conclusions, there are questions.

 

[Same Trick]

Oyama in Japan began study judo, one of his teachers was Kenichi Sawai.
Later Oyama began study Karate, Shotokan…..but, at a Dojo located in Tokyo’s “Korea district” the dojo operated by an Korean who was a student at Funakoshis Dojo, Gichin Funakoshi or his sons made regular visits to the “Korean” Dojo to teach, until Teachers from other styles(yamaguchi ?) began to be invited there too.
Kenichi Sawai, Oyamas judo teacher had been stationed to China, where he had become a student of famed Xingyiquan(Yiquan founder)master Wang Xiangzhai, when Sawai came back to Japan he founded his Taikikenpo school based on Wangs teachings, Oyama came to reunite with Sawai who probably had some influence on Oyamas karate .
As for the above mentioned Korean dojo in Tokyo, the founder of that dojo later moved back to Korea, and his karate came to be called Tang so do.

 

[Same Trick]

Here’s an interesting article giving some insightful angles to the Oyama story… as well as to other martial arts legends

“eventually switched to training Goju-Ryu Karate under So-Nei Chu finally became an assistant instructor, along with Gogen Yamaguchi and Masutatsu Oyama”

The Early Martial Arts Training of Mas Oyama

 

[ronki23]

@_Simon_

In the movie "Fighter in the Wind" Oyama started off with Taekkyon

 

[_Simon_]

@_Simon_

In the movie "Fighter in the Wind" Oyama started off with Taekkyon

Ah now that is interesting... I don't know how true that is, hadn't heard that before!

 

[ronki23]

Ah now that is interesting... I don't know how true that is, hadn't heard that before!

In kickboxing I fought a Goju Ryu Shodan a few times in sparring:

In our first spar I clinched him and he threw me

In our last spar I got close to him and he jump-spin kicked me in the head

 

[_Simon_]

In kickboxing I fought a Goju Ryu Shodan a few times in sparring:

In our first spar I clinched him and he threw me

In our last spar I got close to him and he jump-spin kicked me in the head

Hahaha ahh love it, very nice!

See and that's the thing, every Goju ryu dojo/stream/lineage will differ. A jump-spin kick is not a usual thing trained in Goju dojos from my understanding, even though I have trained in them previously and pull them out every now and then in sparring.

 

[ronki23]

Hahaha ahh love it, very nice!

See and that's the thing, every Goju ryu dojo/stream/lineage will differ. A jump-spin kick is not a usual thing trained in Goju dojos from my understanding, even though I have trained in them previously and pull them out every now and then in sparring.

He's from Hong Kong.

I believe this is his style / federation

History

Ian Stoddern of WMAF GB trained under Mr Lam in Hong Kong before returning to the UK in 1981 with his 1st dan and opened the first WMAF doj...

seigokanengland.blogspot.com

 

[ronki23]

Oyama in Japan began study judo, one of his teachers was Kenichi Sawai.
Later Oyama began study Karate, Shotokan…..but, at a Dojo located in Tokyo’s “Korea district” the dojo operated by an Korean who was a student at Funakoshis Dojo, Gichin Funakoshi or his sons made regular visits to the “Korean” Dojo to teach, until Teachers from other styles(yamaguchi ?) began to be invited there too.
Kenichi Sawai, Oyamas judo teacher had been stationed to China, where he had become a student of famed Xingyiquan(Yiquan founder)master Wang Xiangzhai, when Sawai came back to Japan he founded his Taikikenpo school based on Wangs teachings, Oyama came to reunite with Sawai who probably had some influence on Oyamas karate .
As for the above mentioned Korean dojo in Tokyo, the founder of that dojo later moved back to Korea, and his karate came to be called Tang so do.

Thought Kimura taught Mas Oyama judo ?

Fun fact: In Karate Kid / Cobra Kai, Mr Miyagi was named after Chogun Miyagi (the founder of Goju Ryu) and the Miyagi-Do karate is Goju Ryu while Cobra Kai is Tang Soo Do ; I think they decided it should be Korean Karate because Thomas Ian Griffith (Terry Silver) is a black belt in taekwondo or because John Kreese and Terry Silver possibly fought in the Korea war ?