DK Yoo Awesome Martial Artist? Fighter? hmmm You decide

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JowGaWolf

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I used to believe that. I spent many years trying to 'fix' my wing chun. After as many years training in MMA ..there's not really much left of it that's recognizable.

I've yet to meet anyone that can use anything that 'looks' like CMA (with the exception of Chinese wrestling) with any level of success in a competitive setting, not even the Sanda guys. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if they are out there they are very well hidden.

The honest truth is that we probably have seen so many kung fu movies that many people don't really know what kung fu looks like. This guy has been functional for years. Even before I became functional with Jow Ga. The down side for both of us was probably the same. We had to learn a lot of it by doing it and making mistakes in order to understand how it works. His videos didn't always look this clean. You can see his learning path by comparing his earlier videos.

Most Kung Fu classes aren't taught like this. You only get this type of teaching from someone who has experience using it. Each teacher that follows this path will have a student that will travel a shorter path to learning how it works.

Most kung fu schools teach like this. Then you have to go get your bruises and figure out the timing yourself. Speaking from experience you'll get this lesson and then you you spend the next 2 or 3 months getting hit in the face trying to figure it out. By the 4th month the answer will come to you, while you are sitting down and not thinking about fighting, After that the learning speeds up.

It looks impressive and deadly only because you know what punch is coming (opponent isn't trying to deceive you) it's not lively (opponent isn't actively moving around). It doesn't show the important stuff like how to set it up. how to bait, or how to use it against other fighters. So for most people it's going to "long path learning with lots of mistakes." If you can find someone that already knows, then they can share that knowledge with you and you'll have a shorter path to understanding. You'll still have to get bruises, you just won't get as many, and you don't have to go through as many trial and error mistakes.

If I could be my own teacher, I would teach myself at the age of 13 or 15 with what I know now. It would have been major jump start with my journey in kung fu.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I've yet to meet anyone that can use anything that 'looks' like CMA (with the exception of Chinese wrestling) with any level of success in a competitive setting,
In one challenge fight, I jumped in from 12 feet away with one punch on my opponent's face and ended that fight. There was nothing special about my punch. But my jump in footwork was 100% CMA. I also don't believe any non-CMA system that punches from a "stealing step".

- Left leg forward.
- Step in left foot and jump up.
- Land on right foot.
- Advance left foot behind the right foot as "stealing step" with upper body leaning toward my opponent (this gave me that extra reach and surprised my opponent).

 

Flying Crane

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In one challenge fight, I jumped in from 12 feet away with one punch on my opponent's face and ended that fight. There was nothing special about my punch. But my jump in footwork was 100% CMA. I also don't believe any non-CMA system that punches from a "stealing step".

- Left leg forward.
- Step in left foot and jump up.
- Land on right foot.
- Advance left foot behind the right foot as "stealing step" with upper body leaning toward my opponent (this gave me that extra reach and surprised my opponent).

We have that exact move in one of our forms.
 

Martial D

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The honest truth is that we probably have seen so many kung fu movies that many people don't really know what kung fu looks like. This guy has been functional for years. Even before I became functional with Jow Ga. The down side for both of us was probably the same. We had to learn a lot of it by doing it and making mistakes in order to understand how it works. His videos didn't always look this clean. You can see his learning path by comparing his earlier videos.

Most Kung Fu classes aren't taught like this. You only get this type of teaching from someone who has experience using it. Each teacher that follows this path will have a student that will travel a shorter path to learning how it works.

Most kung fu schools teach like this. Then you have to go get your bruises and figure out the timing yourself. Speaking from experience you'll get this lesson and then you you spend the next 2 or 3 months getting hit in the face trying to figure it out. By the 4th month the answer will come to you, while you are sitting down and not thinking about fighting, After that the learning speeds up.

It looks impressive and deadly only because you know what punch is coming (opponent isn't trying to deceive you) it's not lively (opponent isn't actively moving around). It doesn't show the important stuff like how to set it up. how to bait, or how to use it against other fighters. So for most people it's going to "long path learning with lots of mistakes." If you can find someone that already knows, then they can share that knowledge with you and you'll have a shorter path to understanding. You'll still have to get bruises, you just won't get as many, and you don't have to go through as many trial and error mistakes.

If I could be my own teacher, I would teach myself at the age of 13 or 15 with what I know now. It would have been major jump start with my journey in kung fu.
Exactly my point. Functional stuff basically looks like kickboxing or wrestling. The traditional fluff quickly melts away in those circumstances. In the last video we have the one place you can see it...when the other guy is cooperating.

As for knowing what to look for...after almost thirty years of doing it I'm probably almost there ;)
 

Martial D

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There's your problem in a nutshell.

What "looks like CMA"? This does. Let's keep working on your Wing Chun.

View attachment 27961
I began my WC training in 1994. I spent over a decade pressure testing it as it melted away into something functional.

You may hold any beliefs you choose, but if they aren't based on evidence they can never be more than that.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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We have that exact move in one of our forms.
Does your system also train "Gong Li Quan" (a basic form from the Gong Li system)? That's a forward jump footwork that I like. I also like this backward jump footwork (from 1st road Mai Fu Quan) that I have used it in sparring many times. It looks like CMA, and it is CMA.

back-jump.gif


This circular footwork that you try to move toward your opponent's blind side door, and force your opponent to turn with you is also 100% CMA.

SC-circle-walk.gif
 
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Oily Dragon

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I began my WC training in 1994. I spent over a decade pressure testing it as it melted away into something functional.

You may hold any beliefs you choose, but if they aren't based on evidence they can never be more than that.
The evidence clearly indicates people are capable of using Wing Chun in competition without modifying it, so the defense can rest on that one.

It was a different story in 1994 though. They weren't being motivated enough. Bruce Lee taught me that.

Like I said, that was your one problem, what you were expecting to see. That goes with all expectations, which is why I stay away.
 
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Flying Crane

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Does your system also train "Gong Li Quan" (a basic form from the Gong Li system)? That's a forward jump footwork that I like. I also like this backward jump footwork (from 1st road Mai Fu Quan) that I have used it in sparring many times. It looks like CMA, and it is CMA.

View attachment 27971

This circular footwork that you try to move toward your opponent's blind side door, and force your opponent to turn with you is also 100% CMA.

View attachment 27973
We do not have that form in our system.
 
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JowGaWolf

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The traditional fluff quickly melts away in those circumstances.
Well any fluff is going to melt away. It's not a Traditional thing. There's fluff in MMA, Boxing, Muay Thai and Wrestling. How much fluff you are left with just depends on the skill level of your opponent. If Fighter B greatly out skills his opponent, then there's going to be fluff. If the skill level is the same then there won't be fluff.


If you get too full of yourself then fluff will get you knocked out.

People tend to think fluff is a TMA only issue. People also forget that TMA competitions also includes how well practitioners perform or exciting their martial arts skills look. If boxers and MMA fighters competed in the same performance competitions then they would probably look like this.



The other thing about TMA fluff is that not all of it is for fighting. Some of it is for conditioning. If I'm standing in a horse for 2 minutes in my kung fu form then it's not because "that's how I fight" It's because at that point in time, I'm conditioning my body and mind.

No one goes to this guy and gives him a hard time about his jump rope fluff. No one says "Nah man, that isn't going to work in a fight."

And I'm not picking on you or anything. Just showing a different perspective. I'm also tired physically in mentally. I've been working to hard.

There's just a lot of details on what is considered fluff.

There are a couple of people who thought fighting in a low stance was fluff, until they went a few rounds against me. I just don't think Martial Arts movies have done a good job in realistically presenting functional martial arts and as a result a lot of people try to use movies as a guide to how the technique is done. Then they get wreck by basic stuff and wonder why their years of training and movie guidance didn't work lol.
 

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Boxing is a lot harder than people think it is.
I agree, it's WAY harder. It's usually trained at a closer sparring distance than most Martial Arts. Boxing teaches you to block with your face. What I mean by that is, if you box, you're going to get punched in the face....a lot.

But repeatedly getting hit to the body by a really good body puncher is worse than anything in Martial Arts, IMO. Yeah, yeah, I know, getting kicked to the body can cut you in half. But a good body puncher in boxing will make you want to run home to mama.

If you decide to compete in boxing, on any level, that's when you realize just how difficult the game is. And how helpful it is.

But the best part? If you go through all of that, it translates better to actual self defense.

To me, the best, most fun things to combine are boxing, grappling and contact Martial Arts. And a side advantage to that is, if you still get your ash whooped, you can more accurately report what the hell just happened. :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The traditional fluff quickly melts away in those circumstances.
What's the different between boxing and CMA?

- For boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- For CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a grab and pull.

If you have no intention to establish a clinch, there is not much difference between boxing and CMA.
 
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JowGaWolf

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If you don't have to train kick, joint lock, throw, ground skill, and just concentrate on the punching art, your training can be 5 times more effective that those who has to train all 5 areas.
Boxers are good but only within the limitations of the rules.

Many TMA artists are bad and not functional for the same reason. They are only good within the limitations of the rules.

Some people on this forum are excellent with Point sparring. While other's like me would suck at it. For me, there's no way for me to be good in this. But on the other hand. Being good within those rule sets may make you really bad in some other competitive areas.

When I think boxing is good, I always go back and remind myself of the context in which boxing developed.
 

Oily Dragon

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Many TMA artists are bad and not functional for the same reason. They are only good within the limitations of the rules.

You're being too kind. Forget rules, these are people who can barely move.. Most TMA "artists" are bad because they have no physical discipline, and believe taking classes solves that problem.

It does, and it doesn't. Going to a class is a form of discipline but if you believe that's the same as becoming a fighting machine, of course not. That actually requires you to become a fighting machine by choice.

If you go to karate class every single night of the year, but come home and binge on beer and chips, you're not going to become a fighting machine.

DK Yoo is definitely not that person, either.
 
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JowGaWolf

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No comment. Just thought I would share.


 
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JowGaWolf

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You're being too kind. Forget rules, these are people who can barely move.. Most TMA "artists" are bad because they have no physical discipline, and believe taking classes solves that problem
That's a different story. Those are the ones who are looking for a short cut or a quick belt to show what rank they are vs what skills they have.

I don't factor people like that into the discussions. I only speak of those who are actually giving their best and trying to be good with the system that they train regardless of focus.
 

Martial D

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The evidence clearly indicates people are capable of using Wing Chun in competition without modifying it, so the defense can rest on that one.

It was a different story in 1994 though. They weren't being motivated enough. Bruce Lee taught me that.

Like I said, that was your one problem, what you were expecting to see. That goes with all expectations, which is why I stay away.
Show me your most convincing piece of evidence in this regard. If it is clear, it shouldn't be difficult.
 

Martial D

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Boxers are good but only within the limitations of the rules.

Many TMA artists are bad and not functional for the same reason. They are only good within the limitations of the rules.

Some people on this forum are excellent with Point sparring. While other's like me would suck at it. For me, there's no way for me to be good in this. But on the other hand. Being good within those rule sets may make you really bad in some other competitive areas.

When I think boxing is good, I always go back and remind myself of the context in which boxing developed.
Boxing ... unmodified...is a cornerstone of MMA. If no grappling is introduced, it translates directly into *** kickings, because it is trained in an alive setting and everything that doesn't work in such a setting has been long stripped away.

The problem with traditional styles such as the bulk of CMA is it is trained and passed on with no such pressure testing, and as such remains chalked full of theories, concepts, movements and mechanics that completely fail when the opponent fights back, no matter how long you train them or how good you get at them.
 

Martial D

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What's the different between boxing and CMA?

- For boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- For CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a grab and pull.

If you have no intention to establish a clinch, there is not much difference between boxing and CMA.
Range..timing.. footwork..mechanics..head and body movement..theory..angles..and most of all..one has been honed under a century or more of constant pressure testing, and one has not.

But you're right. One has grabbing.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Show me your most convincing piece of evidence in this regard. If it is clear, it shouldn't be difficult.
ha ha ha. which is why I never use the phrase "The evidence shows"
 
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