Discussion concerning Presas Family Styles

[Cruentus]

Interesting site. Looks good; I'll have to read it when I have more time. Is GM Lazo a left hander too, out of curiousity?

 

[seibukan]

Yes he is.

 

[seibukan]

 

[modarnis]

It is always great to see written history of Modern Arnis.

 

[Guro Harold]

Interesting.

The documents supports that Lakan was a probably a category of rank rather than an individual rank by itself. Please refer to this thread.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Interesting.

The documents supports that Lakan was a probably a category of rank rather than an individual rank by itself. Please refer to this thread.

It is almost exactly the same in the "Pink Book" - The difference is in White where it lists 6 ranks.

 

[Morgan]

It is almost exactly the same in the "Pink Book" - The difference is in White where it lists 6 ranks.

I'm sorry, I don't understand the term "Pink BooK". Would you be so kind as to specify the book title and year of publication and edition if appropriate. What are the six ranks list? Your post seems to imply that there are several rank listings. Is that true? If so what is the correct ranking list or at least which list was in common use at the time of Professor's illnes?

Thanks in advance for the clarifications.

Morgan

 

[Guro Harold]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the term "Pink BooK". Would you be so kind as to specify the book title and year of publication and edition if appropriate. What are the six ranks list? Your post seems to imply that there are several rank listings. Is that true? If so what is the correct ranking list or at least which list was in common use at the time of Professor's illnes?

Thanks in advance for the clarifications.

Morgan

Hi Morgan,

Please see these threads for references for the "pink book."

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=466789&postcount=3
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202936&postcount=1

Thanks,

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator

 

[Morgan]

Interesting.

The documents supports that Lakan was a probably a category of rank rather than an individual rank by itself. Please refer to this thread.

Dear Palusut,

I have to disagree with your contention. The catagories are Male/Lakan and Female/Dayang. The ranks are Lakan/Dayang Isa, Lakan/Dayang Dalawa, Lakan/Dayang Tatalo, etc. through Lakan/Dayang Sampu. In other words Male or Female Black Belt holders, numbers 1 - 10.

Within the document as I read and understood it there are only 3 belt colours, White, Brown and Black. The white Belt has only 1 level, Brown Belt has 3 levels and Black Belt has 10 levels. There is no probationary level Black Belt.

Of course I am quite willing to accept the idea that a probationary belt level was created and used in actual practice, however, that is seperate from and not mentioned in the document. I'm curious about where and how you came up with the probationary thing from this document?

Morgan

 

[Guro Harold]

Dear Palusut,

I have to disagree with your contention. The catagories are Male/Lakan and Female/Dayang. The ranks are Lakan/Dayang Isa, Lakan/Dayang Dalawa, Lakan/Dayang Tatalo, etc. through Lakan/Dayang Sampu. In other words Male or Female Black Belt holders, numbers 1 - 10.

Within the document as I read and understood it there are only 3 belt colours, White, Brown and Black. The white Belt has only 1 level, Brown Belt has 3 levels and Black Belt has 10 levels. There is no probationary level Black Belt.

Of course I am quite willing to accept the idea that a probationary belt level was created and used in actual practice, however, that is seperate from and not mentioned in the document. I'm curious about where and how you came up with the probationary thing from this document?

Morgan

Hi Morgan,

By all means there is no expectation of uniformity in agreement.

Also, the definition of category is in the most generalized form, per Webster.com:

"1 : any of several fundamental and distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong
2 : a division within a system of classification"

Therefore rank can be a category as well.

Finally, the discussion thread of Probationary Black Belts was listed.

Thanks,

Palusut

 

[Rich Parsons]

I'm sorry, I don't understand the term "Pink BooK". Would you be so kind as to specify the book title and year of publication and edition if appropriate. What are the six ranks list? Your post seems to imply that there are several rank listings. Is that true? If so what is the correct ranking list or at least which list was in common use at the time of Professor's illnes?

Thanks in advance for the clarifications.

Morgan

My Dear Morgan.

For someone who seems to understand a lot about Modern Arnis and knows alot about the history and knows the "right" Questions to ask, or the "Right" things to be ... , .

Well to answer your question:

Modern Arnis
Philippine MArtial Art
"Stick Fighting"

Cover Art is GM Remy Presas and Roland Dantes at Madison Square Garden, 1976

1st US. Edition
by: Remy Amador Presas
Founder of Modern Arnis

ISBN:
0-9657796-0-2


First Philipines Edition, 1974
2nd Printing, April 1975
3rd Printing, July 1975
4th Printing, August 1978
5th Printing, December 1980
6th Printing, September 1993

First US Edition, April 1997

** The Prodominant color is Pink on the book **

In the Appendices start at the back of the book. Count 11 pages back.
"Ranking of Players in Modern Arnis"

Table in lower right hand corner: (* please excuse the poor spacing as white spaces are removed *)
Belt -------------------------------- Male ------------- Female ---------
White: 1 - 6: Antas Isa - Anim ------ Likas ------------- Likas
Brown (Blue Rim) -------------------- Lihka ------------- Lihka
1st -------------------------------- Isa --------------- Isa
2nd -------------------------------- Delawa ----------- Delawa
3rd -------------------------------- Tatlo ------------- Tatlo
Black (Red Rimmed) ------------------ Lakan ------------ Dayang
1st Dan ---------------------------- Isa --------------- Isa
2nd Dan ---------------------------- Delawa ----------- Delawa
3rd Dan ---------------------------- Tatlo ------------- Tatlo
4th Dan ---------------------------- Apat -------------- Apat
5th Dan ---------------------------- Lima -------------- Lima
6th Dan ---------------------------- Anim -------------- Anim
7th Dan ---------------------------- Pito --------------- Pito
8th Dan ---------------------------- Walo -------------- Walo
9th Dan ---------------------------- Sayam ------------ Sayam
19th Dan --------------------------- Sampo ------------ Sampo


*******************************************************

So if you look at the original document above it say White then Brown ... ,.

In the table from the Book it has 6 degrees of white or 6 ranks of white.

Hence my comment it looks almost the same as in the Pink Book except. I was not saying the Pink Book predated the original documents. I did not say it was the only ranking system used.

I repeat it I said it was almost the same as in the Pink Book. Meaning I see the continuity.

By the way Tim Hartman has copies of this book as does members of the IMAF (* Dr Schea *) group. It would be good to get a copy.

 

[Dieter]

Hello Rich;

I have the 4th edition of the book and the american version (GM with Roland Dantes on the cover).
In my Filipino edition, it says:

4th Printing, June 1980

The first 3 are the same as you wrote. anyway, there is a distinct difference between those books regarding the gradings.
You are absolutely right with the gradings, as they are written in the last, US version.
But in the original pink book form the Philippines, 4th Edition from June 1980, the ranks are EXACTLY the same as in the documents presented above.

I have scanned it and here is the link the picture, so you can have a look:

So Professor Remy has changed it a bit for the american students by the look of it.

Regards


Dieter

Mod Note:

Changed url to embedded picture.

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator


Thank you. Much better this way.

Dieter

 

[Morgan]

My Dear Morgan.

For someone who seems to understand a lot about Modern Arnis and knows alot about the history and knows the "right" Questions to ask, or the "Right" things to be ... , .

Well to answer your question:

Modern Arnis
Philippine MArtial Art
"Stick Fighting"

Cover Art is GM Remy Presas and Roland Dantes at Madison Square Garden, 1976

1st US. Edition
by: Remy Amador Presas
Founder of Modern Arnis

ISBN:
0-9657796-0-2


First Philipines Edition, 1974
2nd Printing, April 1975
3rd Printing, July 1975
4th Printing, August 1978
5th Printing, December 1980
6th Printing, September 1993

First US Edition, April 1997

** The Prodominant color is Pink on the book **

In the Appendices start at the back of the book. Count 11 pages back.
"Ranking of Players in Modern Arnis"

Table in lower right hand corner: (* please excuse the poor spacing as white spaces are removed *)
Belt -------------------------------- Male ------------- Female ---------
White: 1 - 6: Antas Isa - Anim ------ Likas ------------- Likas
Brown (Blue Rim) -------------------- Lihka ------------- Lihka
1st -------------------------------- Isa --------------- Isa
2nd -------------------------------- Delawa ----------- Delawa
3rd -------------------------------- Tatlo ------------- Tatlo
Black (Red Rimmed) ------------------ Lakan ------------ Dayang
1st Dan ---------------------------- Isa --------------- Isa
2nd Dan ---------------------------- Delawa ----------- Delawa
3rd Dan ---------------------------- Tatlo ------------- Tatlo
4th Dan ---------------------------- Apat -------------- Apat
5th Dan ---------------------------- Lima -------------- Lima
6th Dan ---------------------------- Anim -------------- Anim
7th Dan ---------------------------- Pito --------------- Pito
8th Dan ---------------------------- Walo -------------- Walo
9th Dan ---------------------------- Sayam ------------ Sayam
19th Dan --------------------------- Sampo ------------ Sampo


*******************************************************

So if you look at the original document above it say White then Brown ... ,.

In the table from the Book it has 6 degrees of white or 6 ranks of white.

Hence my comment it looks almost the same as in the Pink Book except. I was not saying the Pink Book predated the original documents. I did not say it was the only ranking system used.

I repeat it I said it was almost the same as in the Pink Book. Meaning I see the continuity.

By the way Tim Hartman has copies of this book as does members of the IMAF (* Dr Schea *) group. It would be good to get a copy.

Thank you for your very through reply, I appriciate it, Mr. Parsons. With regard to your comment:

"For someone who seems to understand a lot about Modern Arnis and knows alot about the history and knows the "right" Questions to ask, or the "Right" things to be ... , ."

Thanks again... I know a lot because I've read a lot. I had a very good teacher who taught Kenpo and then added Modern Arnis to our system as an 'add on and backup art' because she believed that the Kenpo weapons training wasn't as complete as it could be from her perspective. 12 years of training under a single instructor and program tends to develop a strong background if the student is alive, alert and curious - I am all 3.

I'll get a copy of the book and then read it several times cover to cover. The "pink book" designation was useless to me, but your complete citation makes it very easy for me to obtain a copy:
-------------------------------------------------------
Modern Arnis
Philippine MArtial Art
"Stick Fighting"

Cover Art is GM Remy Presas and Roland Dantes at Madison Square Garden, 1976

1st US. Edition
by: Remy Amador Presas
Founder of Modern Arnis

ISBN:
0-9657796-0-2


First Philipines Edition, 1974
2nd Printing, April 1975
3rd Printing, July 1975
4th Printing, August 1978
5th Printing, December 1980
6th Printing, September 1993

First US Edition, April 1997
-------------------------------------------------------------------

For those of us who are not WMAA members and who have not gained access to some of the coded, insider phrases, the need for a citation shouldn't be a surprise...

Respectfully,

Morgan

 

[Cruentus]

Just to be clear, the question here is if the "Black------Lakan/Dayang" category was seperate rank itself, or the title of the category of "black belt" ranks. In other words, did one earn a "Lakan" then a "Lakan Isa" after brown? Or, was "Lakan Isa" the next rank after brown.

By the looks of these documents and pink books, "Lakan/Dayang" was just the name of the category "Black," as "Likah" is the name of the category "brown." I don't think anyone has yet referenced a time when there were 4 levels of brown rather then 3; so it can be assumed that "Black....Lakan/Dayang" is only the name of the category and not an actual rank, and that the 1st black belt one would earn according to these documents would be "Lakan Isa."

The question only arises because as many things Modern Arnis, Professor did many things at different times. In the past, before my time, I understand that when one earned a black belt, they earned "Lakan Isa." However, in the mid 90's at the camps in the Midwest and Northeast, "Lakan" was issued as a seperate rank, before "Lakan Isa." This was due to certain people who were helping out administratively who came from Karate backgrounds, and who felt more comfortable with the idea of having a "probationary black belt" before the "real black belt," as it were. So they pressured Professor to make that change. The "Lakan" that was issued had an expiration date set a year out, where I believe the Lakan Isa and up expired 3 years out. There were some that didn't have an expiration date written on their certs, but not many.

So, that is why there is a question at all; it wasn't done the same way throughout Modern Arnis history while Professor was alive.

Question I have is this: Do some of the organizations do "Lakan" as a seperate rank as it was done in the mid-90's? Or does everyone pretty much adhere to the way it was before, and the way it was written in these documents?

Anyway, this is the issue as I see it and remember it; I apologize in advance for any lack of clarity or accuracy in what I have typed.

Thank you.

 

[Guro Harold]

Just to be clear, the question here is if the "Black------Lakan/Dayang" category was seperate rank itself, or the title of the category of "black belt" ranks. In other words, did one earn a "Lakan" then a "Lakan Isa" after brown? Or, was "Lakan Isa" the next rank after brown.

By the looks of these documents and pink books, "Lakan/Dayang" was just the name of the category "Black," as "Likah" is the name of the category "brown." I don't think anyone has yet referenced a time when there were 4 levels of brown rather then 3; so it can be assumed that "Black....Lakan/Dayang" is only the name of the category and not an actual rank, and that the 1st black belt one would earn according to these documents would be "Lakan Isa."

The question only arises because as many things Modern Arnis, Professor did many things at different times. In the past, before my time, I understand that when one earned a black belt, they earned "Lakan Isa." However, in the mid 90's at the camps in the Midwest and Northeast, "Lakan" was issued as a seperate rank, before "Lakan Isa." This was due to certain people who were helping out administratively who came from Karate backgrounds, and who felt more comfortable with the idea of having a "probationary black belt" before the "real black belt," as it were. So they pressured Professor to make that change. The "Lakan" that was issued had an expiration date set a year out, where I believe the Lakan Isa and up expired 3 years out. There were some that didn't have an expiration date written on their certs, but not many.

So, that is why there is a question at all; it wasn't done the same way throughout Modern Arnis history while Professor was alive.

Question I have is this: Do some of the organizations do "Lakan" as a seperate rank as it was done in the mid-90's? Or does everyone pretty much adhere to the way it was before, and the way it was written in these documents?

Anyway, this is the issue as I see it and remember it; I apologize in advance for any lack of clarity or accuracy in what I have typed.

Thank you.

Hi Cruentus,

As far as I know, both IMAF (Delany's and MOTTs) issue Lakan Zeros (Probationary Black Belts). This was one of the reasons for the thread/poll - "Probationary Black Belt:Crock or Not".

Thanks,

Palusut

 

[Cruentus]

Hi Cruentus,

As far as I know, both IMAF (Delany's and MOTTs) issue Lakan Zeros (Probationary Black Belts). This was one of the reasons for the thread/poll - "Probationary Black Belt:Crock or Not".

Thanks,

Palusut

Right. That makes sense, as I remember that some of those individuals were in support of the idea way back then.

Also, I am remembering now that you mention that old thread, that in the 80's someone had mentioned that probationary lakans still wore the brown belt, but recieved the lakan cert. I personally was told to wear the black belt, but recieved the lakan cert. before my lakan isa. So, it is just interesting to note how things change. According to these documents, as it was in the books, there was no "probabtionary black" and "lakan" was not a seperate rank. But as we can see, things changed as Professor saw fit. And for each individual organization, things will change as those leaders see fit.

And the world moves on...

 

[Dieter]

hi,

just my 2 cents and admitted, I am guessing.
It seems to be clar, that in the Philippines at least according to the book, there was no "Lakan 0" rank between brown and Lakan Isa.
At one time, this rank must have been added by GM Remy, most probably during his american time.

So now the guessing part:
Professor Presas was a man, that wanted to make people happy with his teaching and his Modern Arnis. But what does make a martial artist unhappier, than a failed black belt exam? This is, what most western people train for. To reach the black belt.
And then he fails. What a sad experience.
So then I can imagine very well, that GM Remy said, no, you did not fail, you get a probationary balck belt and you have to make Lakan Isa within the next year. This for sure made the people feel better.
They did not fail. And then, this may hav gotte a habit, that first there is the Lakan, and only then, Lakan Isa.

It would be interesting to know, which groups still have the Lakan 0 and then the Lakan Isa and which groups go straight to Lakan Isa.
What would also be interesting from those groups that use the Lakan 0, if the program for Lakan 0 and Lakan Isa is the same ort a differen one.


We in the DAV do not use the Laka 0. After brown, you go straight to Lakan Isa.



Regards


Dieter Knüttel

 

[Guro Harold]

Hi Dieter,

This is only my impression based on the camp experiences (Southeast US only) that I have attended:

- No matter how good you were and how well you knew the material, when you tested at camp there were a couple of tracks:

- Fast track
-----------
- Green (Level 5)
- Lakan Zero/Isa - depending on who tested you.

- Rapid Track
-------------
- Green (Level 5)
- Brown
- Lakan Zero/Isa - depending on who tested you.

- Median Track
--------------
- Blue
- Green
- Brown
- Lakan Zero/Isa - depending on who tested you.

- Gradual Track
---------------
- rank by rank

Notes:
------
- The Professor did not hand out Probationary Black Belts. If a person was not up to par, they stayed on the gradual track or they failed the Probationary Test.
- I got the understanding (or misunderstanding) that the Probationary Belt was in response to people getting their 1st degree black, then dropping out.
- There were a certain amount of camps that a person had to have attended no matter how much they knew the material or how good they were.

The notes again were subjective.

Best regards,

Harold

 

[Cruentus]

So now the guessing part:
Professor Presas was a man, that wanted to make people happy with his teaching and his Modern Arnis. But what does make a martial artist unhappier, than a failed black belt exam? This is, what most western people train for. To reach the black belt.
And then he fails. What a sad experience.
So then I can imagine very well, that GM Remy said, no, you did not fail, you get a probationary balck belt and you have to make Lakan Isa within the next year. This for sure made the people feel better.
They did not fail. And then, this may hav gotte a habit, that first there is the Lakan, and only then, Lakan Isa.

Dieter Knüttel

Hi Datu.

You have mentioned this before in the other thread. Although it is a sound theory, and although that I think that promotional compromise may have been true for some individuals (specifically those who were meaning to skip one or two ranks, and instead got a rank below what they were origionally testing for and told to try again at another test), I don't think that this was the case as a whole.

What I saw was more in line with Harolds comments. Professor tended to allow people around him who were helping out with various administrative concerns to influence how things occured at an organizational level. This could be anything from how forms were taught to how tests were run to the ranking structure. It is my perception that some of these individuals who came from previous styles influenced Professor to have a rank 0. It was never explicitly clear whether this was probationary or not; I had people refer to me and my rank at the time when I was "lakan 0" as a "probationary" black, while Professor always just said I was a black belt.

The reasoning behind the rank 0 as it was explained to me was as Harold put it; there was a feeling that too many people would recieve Lakan Isa, would go out and teach and never return for training. The Lakan 0 structure, with expiration dates, was supposed to mitigate that behavior.

I will concur with you, however, that "Lakan 0" was really a newer thing that was invented in the states in the 90's rather then something that was always in place.

 

[Dieter]

Hello Cruentus and Palusut,

as I wrote, I was only speculating.
Thanks for your observations. I take your word for it.

When we had gradings with the Professor in Germany, we always handled it the DAV way, regarding program and testing. He had a look at the people and afterwards we all sat together to discuss the results.

One time, with 2 students, we wanted to fail them, because they were not good, GM Remy said: give them probational black belt. For we don't have his they failed.

This is why I speculated this way, but then again you might know much better from having attended much more American camps than I did.

Thanks for the input.

Regards


Dieter