Difference between block and guard
- Thread starter Faith
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skribs
Grandmaster
Individual terms may change from art to art. In general, a guard is static/passive, where a block is active. Think of a guard like armor, and a block like a shield.
If you're wearing armor, that armor will pretty much always cover the same spot of your body, and have the same weak points. For example, if my only armor is a breastplate, then it's never going to protect my legs, arms, or head. By wearing the breastplate, I'm challenging my opponent to attack somewhere else. With the martial arts guard, your opponent has to punch through or around it in order to hit you.
On the other hand, a shield is much more active. Your opponent swings for your legs? Reach down. Your arms? Turn. Your head? Reach up. You can maneuver the shield around to block the incoming attacks. This is a block. I'm trying to intercept my opponent before he gets to me.
So the guard is your static position, which gives your opponent an obstacle around which he must hit you. The block is active, for when your opponent goes around your guard.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
To flesh out what dvcochran correctly said, guard is a "static position," capable of shielding the body against an attack, and that can serve as an effective launching point for a dynamic block/counter or attack.
Faith puts guard and block as an either-or question, but they are both employed (guard, constantly - block, as needed) and are not mutually exclusive.
I think this is a good description of guard in a striking art, though this term may be slightly different in a ju jitsu context.
PS: To clarify, one's guard is not static in the sense of being immovable. By changing its position, one's guard can be used to adjust to the opponent's changing offensive posture, as well as to purposely expose oneself to attack, thus inviting the attack along an expected line to set up a counter. It's just static in the sense of it does its job just by its position in space.
PPS: While I was editing, Scribs posted some similar thoughts. Together, I think we covered it pretty well.
Faith puts guard and block as an either-or question, but they are both employed (guard, constantly - block, as needed) and are not mutually exclusive.
I think this is a good description of guard in a striking art, though this term may be slightly different in a ju jitsu context.
PS: To clarify, one's guard is not static in the sense of being immovable. By changing its position, one's guard can be used to adjust to the opponent's changing offensive posture, as well as to purposely expose oneself to attack, thus inviting the attack along an expected line to set up a counter. It's just static in the sense of it does its job just by its position in space.
PPS: While I was editing, Scribs posted some similar thoughts. Together, I think we covered it pretty well.
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Guard = shield.
This could be either how you hold your hands up to cover certain openings that you have, or it be a stance that does the same thing. Hands shield the top, stance shields the lower. Both can be done at the same time or independently of each other. A guard should make it difficult to attack the area that you are guarding. It can be static or mobile. An example, a guard against striking and a guard against grappling. For a visualization think of how one may hold a small shield to prevent you from attacking certain areas
Blocks = strikes against incoming attacking limbs. Your hands or legs meet an incoming strike. This can be soft or hard. If you throw a punch then my hand extends to meet your punch and to attack your punching arm. The term block is the general term, but there are many ways to block a punch or a kick. When someone kicks your leg, you may raise your own leg to meet the kick.
So in short. Guards shield from an attack. Blocks extend out to meet an attacking limb.
Edit: You are going to see variations in the definitions of Guard and Block and much of that is due to people training in different systems. Skribs says a guard is like armor. But in my system. we actually do body hardening conditioning which increases the bone density. For me, this is armor, it's what you I wear, and what I wear is body hardening conditioning. You'll get different variations in descriptions based on the system that the person trains.
This could be either how you hold your hands up to cover certain openings that you have, or it be a stance that does the same thing. Hands shield the top, stance shields the lower. Both can be done at the same time or independently of each other. A guard should make it difficult to attack the area that you are guarding. It can be static or mobile. An example, a guard against striking and a guard against grappling. For a visualization think of how one may hold a small shield to prevent you from attacking certain areas
Blocks = strikes against incoming attacking limbs. Your hands or legs meet an incoming strike. This can be soft or hard. If you throw a punch then my hand extends to meet your punch and to attack your punching arm. The term block is the general term, but there are many ways to block a punch or a kick. When someone kicks your leg, you may raise your own leg to meet the kick.
So in short. Guards shield from an attack. Blocks extend out to meet an attacking limb.
Edit: You are going to see variations in the definitions of Guard and Block and much of that is due to people training in different systems. Skribs says a guard is like armor. But in my system. we actually do body hardening conditioning which increases the bone density. For me, this is armor, it's what you I wear, and what I wear is body hardening conditioning. You'll get different variations in descriptions based on the system that the person trains.
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When you are in a guard position, when a punch comes toward you, if you freeze your shoulder and arms, you only rotate your body and let your guard to meet with the incoming punch. Is that guard, or block?
For example, when a lion attacks a rhino. The rhino turn it's body and let it's rhino horn to face the incoming lion's bite. Is that guard, or block?
Is a "moving guard" the same as "block"?
But when you rotate your body, your guard will move with you too. When a rhino is running, is it's rhino horn a guard, or block?
IMO, a guard can be a block. But a block cannot be a guard.
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I would still follow he same characteristics. If your arm is extended to meet an attack then it's a block because you are meeting the attack. If you are only holding your arms out and waiting for the attack to land on your arms then it will be a guard. If your hands are already extended then you aren't meeting that attack. The attack is falling on your extended arms. When I watch your videos of wading in with two arms extended, plowing through, then you are using a guard. When you have bent arms and then extend to meet an attack then you are blocking.
Rhino's use a guard. Think of having a shield on your arm and you turn your body. The guard is used to defend without extending.. A Rhino's horn doesn't extend. It keeps the same position. In reality, it would probably be a hybrid of guard / attack.. You can see how the guard allows the Rhino to defend while looking for openings. The guard helps to prevent the attack. If your move in while arms are already extended then it's a guard.. This would be like the horn on a Rhino.
Blocks would extend to meet the attack. In this video the elephant uses a guard and a block. In this case the block is trunk. The tusk are the guard.
This would be similar to one hand shielding and the other punching or attacking and incoming punch. Lick how you saw the elephant use it's tusks and trunk.
fighter on the right uses a guard and block. The block extends out to meet the attack. The guard does not.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Interesting point. In this case, even though your are moving your guard with your body, it is mostly to absorb the force of the strike. It does not manipulate the attacker as a block can or actively aid in counter attacking. The guard is still acting as a passive shield. So, I still see a guard and a block as two different things.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
A body rotation is quite different from taking a step, which is often done with a block, never with a guard.
Do you personally have a Rhino's horn on the end of your face?
Point being we have opposable thumbs.
Hold a shield close to your body and rotate. Is the shield still a shield or is it a block? Does it meet the strike or does it cover an opening? Just some things to think about.
Here you can see where Wangs Rhino technique is used as a guard. The hand extend before the strike and the student plows through. The technique isn't meeting the strike. Instead it's being used as an obstacle for the attacker to punch around. You can also see where the Rhino technique is used as a block as the person is actually trying to meet the punches.
Assume this is your guard (fighting stance).
If you just rotate your body (without moving your arm), you can achieve the same result as the following clip.
The video that you are showing would be a block to me. If you held your arm out and rotated an extended arm, then that would be a shield. The only reason I say that because I don't think a person could turn their body that fast enough to with and extended arm to cover the distance in order prevent getting hit. The more the arm is extended the longer it takes to cover the distance. Before contact, you may prevent the first one from landing but you definitely wouldn't be able to prevent the follow up punches from landing. If you arms are closer to you then there's less distance for your arm to travel before it redirects or stops the punch. But at this stage you are no longer attacking a punch you are moving a guard.
If I wanted to defend against punches using and extended arm then I would do it as it's done in a long guard.
If I want to use an extended arm to address punches then I will need to be able to extend and retract my arm as necessary to adjust to off timing and changes of punching angles. Most punches do not travel the center line. Most punches start off the center line and travel towards a center line. For example, a Jab, hook would easily exploit what you are showing in this video.. Even in the clip the defender actually gets the timing off which would have resulted in him getting hit in the face.
I know his timing is off because the block lands on the bicep. Had the person actually been punching with real intent, that one punch would have gotten in. With that type of blocking blocks on the forearm mean your timing and hand positioning is good. Blocks that land beyond the elbow are actually punches that would have nailed you. I've personally eaten enough punches, that make me feel very confident in this. Usually I leave room for exceptions, but at fighting speed, there are points on my attackers body, that I cannot allow to pass my block if I hope to get hit. Now if you have longer arms than the person your fighting then of course this will not hold true. But if the arms are similar length or if your attacker has longer arms, then blocks of this type that land behind your opponent's elbows are going to be punches that land on your face.
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Yokozuna514
2nd Black Belt
A guard is a general stance or formation that protects you from most attacks and is meant to protect or dissuade specific maneuvers due to the display of defensive preparation. When you enter a fight you present a guard and this guard reveals the areas that you wish to protect the most. The distance you give to your opponent also tells them the nature of your comfort level in the type of combat you are engaging in. The initiative in which you engage also tells your opponent the willingness you have to make contact. How you respond their initiatives in contact tells them the strategies and tactics you will use to engage with them. A guard is many things but mostly it is the start of a conversation of how you would like to enter in a combat with your opponent.
A block is a specific maneuver that is meant to meet and stop a specific attack. Depending on your strategy and tactics, blocks can be hard or soft but generally they are meant to repel or absorb the force being directed to you. It is a statement or answer to a question.
A parry is a specific maneuver that is meant to meet and redirect the force of a specific attack. Depending on your strategy and tactics, parries can either redirect the force to change the position of the attacker or they can redirect the force to allow you to change your position (using the force or energy of your opponent). It is like answering a question with a question.
Blocks and parries are sides of the same coin. Some people see them as the same thing and that is fine. I make a distinction here only because there can be a subtle difference on how they are applied and how you wish the outcome of the technique to end.
punisher73
Senior Master
Here is a great article by Iain Abernethy on kata/fighting and the "guard".
The use of the 'Karate Guard' in Kata and Combat | Iain Abernethy
The use of the 'Karate Guard' in Kata and Combat | Iain Abernethy
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
This is a good article illustrating several concepts of traditional Okinawan karate. Kubota Shozan, a student of Funakoshi, taught many of these things in reference to guard: Grab and pull, Immobilize the opponent before striking, Perform multiple blocks to control the arm...
One point Abernathy was off on, IMO, was that a guard (kamae) had no purpose in combat scenarios. Although it's true that at close range there is constant action so guard is not utilized, there are times when there may be distance, especially at the start of the engagement. Here, kamae can be used (often in a sport sparring situation as Ian noted.) Kubota pointed out that kamae can be used to lure the opponent to attack where you want him to, feigning an opening and drawing him into a counter.
I liked his historical references regarding the evolution of fighting style and how everything should be put into context to see the whole picture and get a truer understanding of TMA.
Metal
Green Belt
I would answer it this way, and maybe it is actually the 'Guarding Block' where the confusion comes from:
거들어아래막기 - Kodeuro Momtong Makki - Assisting Mid Section Block
(Guarding Block / Daebi Makki in ITF Taekwondo)
When you perform the block, then it's a block.
If you hold the block after executing the movement, then it becomes your guard.
Kodeuro Momtong Makki/Daebi Makki is often used in Dwit Gubi (Back Stance) (Niunja Sogi/L-Stance in ITF TKD, Hugul Sogi in pre-ITF TKD) as a ready stance, for example in kicking drills. The posture comes pretty close to a sparring posture.
거들어아래막기 - Kodeuro Momtong Makki - Assisting Mid Section Block
(Guarding Block / Daebi Makki in ITF Taekwondo)
When you perform the block, then it's a block.
If you hold the block after executing the movement, then it becomes your guard.
Kodeuro Momtong Makki/Daebi Makki is often used in Dwit Gubi (Back Stance) (Niunja Sogi/L-Stance in ITF TKD, Hugul Sogi in pre-ITF TKD) as a ready stance, for example in kicking drills. The posture comes pretty close to a sparring posture.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
It's been noted that a block is dynamic and a guard static. The guard is held, perhaps to later block, but while to block and hold it making it into your guard fits the definition, it's not ideal. It is very defensive and wasted effort. Why block and do nothing with it afterwards? It's all in how you look at what a block is.
There is a saying in karate, put in writing by Goju founder Miyagi, "There are no conventional blocks." This is one of the most important concepts in true Okinawan karate. It's not just Zen mumbo jumbo. Consider it as the first move of your counter attack. What does a block actually do besides keeping you from getting hit?
1. Changes the angle of the attacking limb, moving it off line and taking it momentarily out of play.
2. This also opens lines of attack for you, allowing you to counter with a kick, reverse punch, or the same hand you blocked with.
3. Properly done, the block can injure the punching limb ("cutting the forearm" in the words of Kubota Shozan), injuring the tendons.
4. Can pull or push the attacker off balance and vulnerable for counter attack.
5. Allows the blocking hand to grab to maximize the effect of #4.
6. Causes pain and mentally disrupts the attacker, again facilitating up a counter.
7. In other words, to sum up, allows you to manipulate the opponent.
All the above require instant follow-up motion to take advantage of the result of the block, so the blocking arm should not become a static guard, but stay in motion as described above to further your offense. These things are not always possible to do, but should be the goal and main mind-set in fighting.
Is this guard or block?
It's not
- guard because you are moving your arms.
- block because you are not blocking any incoming punch.
You move your arms to
- protect space in front of you.
- sense your opponent's intention.
- make contact on your opponent's arm/arms.
- ...
It's not
- guard because you are moving your arms.
- block because you are not blocking any incoming punch.
You move your arms to
- protect space in front of you.
- sense your opponent's intention.
- make contact on your opponent's arm/arms.
- ...
OP
OP
Faith
Yellow Belt
Many interessting toughts and opinions here, and I start to get a clear view of the differences between those.
Thanks for a very interessting link, I really enjoyed reading it!
