Dai Sau-hidden move?

[Si-Je]

I see that very few WC/WT/WTZ (tzun, have to diferenciate now) people don't seem to use dai sau. We do, it's one of my favs!

But here we go... when you bong sau do you just throw it out there and hope for the best, or are you "turned into" bong sau from another movement, or by the force of your opponent? hmmmmmm....

In Si Lim Tao you move from Tan Sau to (dai sau) up to bong sau. Some people do this form fast and it looks like tan sau straight to bong sau. But methinks dai sau is the middle ground between tan sau and bong sau.

i.e. off a hook punch you come forward in dai sau and if the opponent's force is too much you get turned into bong sau. From dai sau your half way to bong sau so the movement in minute but effective. You can do this with tan sau too and turn into bong sau as well, (but I really like dai sau for the bigger more long limbed attackers )

But, I've seen many people that just deflect a punch straight away with bong sau.
Which do you do? Does your school teach dai sau, and how does your school teach bong sau?

 

[CuongNhuka]

-Runs through Sui Nim Tao-
-Puzzles for a moment...-
-Stands up and runs through Sui Nim Tao-

I'm slightly confused. The Sui Nim Tao I learned doesn't have Tan Sao to Bong Sao. We have Bong Sao-Tan Sao-Palm strike though. Would you mind explaining this to me?

(By the way, I know Vietnamese Wing Chun/Moy Yat Wing Chun... it's a long story).

 

[mook jong man]

Yes we do have dai sau, we use it against round house punches.
We were taught to mirror the opponents elbow and drive the dai sau straight up from the elbow spreading the force over the whole arm and doing a punch at the same time. At higher levels the dai sau becomes like an attack in it self with the use of forward force from the shoulder.
My late Sifu Jim Fung's dai sau was like getting hit in the bicep with a steel bar.

 

[geezer]

I see that very few WC/WT/WTZ (tzun, have to diferenciate now) people don't seem to use dai sau. We do, it's one of my favs!

But here we go... when you bong sau do you just throw it out there and hope for the best, or are you "turned into" bong sau from another movement, or by the force of your opponent? hmmmmmm....

Which do you do? Does your school teach dai sau, and how does your school teach bong sau?

In WT I'm not aware of the term "dai-sau", but then sometimes the same technique is referred to by more than one Cantonese term, each of which in turn may be spelled several ways in our alphabet. So I can't really clarify that one unless you describe the movement.

As far as Bong-sau is concerned, great question! All the branches of "WT" agree in that the opponent's force creates the bong-sau. You never lift-up your own elbow to make a bong (except in the forms, of course). And, the "WT" bong is supposed to be "springy" like a bent rattan cane--never rigid. In chi-sau, for example, your arm is said to roll from tan to bong "like a floating log rolling in water" in response to the energy provided by your partner. I know that some "WC" branches do use a forceful, aggressive bong that is very different...more like a strike. A while back I started a thread on this topic titled something like, "How springy is your Bong-sau". Only a few people really weighed in. I believe Kamon was one. Maybe the distinction is too subtle for the average "drifter" visiting this forum.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Nope I've not heard of dai sao either
I am with Cuong here - in sil nim tao we come out wit bong and fold to tan sao keeping structure

Are you talking about lan sao?

It might be good to film it and send the link here. Or find a clip of what you're talking about to put it here

wing chun is so varied that some styles remove movements and other styles add them. All very interesting though

 

[Si-Je]

It seems that Dai Sau is only used in the Fung system. I haven't seen anyone elese use it. And yes, definately great for hook punches. (I've found it works just as well against TKD punching in tournament, especially if their a bit taller than you). opens up your opponent nicely.

We teach folks bong sau from dai sau at the beginning levels. It helps them to keep their fingers/hand forward toward the opponent, and helps to keep them from collasping the bong sau when first starting to use it.
Using Dai Sau with good forward pressure you can bring the opponent's striking arm up over your head (or their head) and definately strike right away with the dai sau hand. If thier taller I tend to chop the face, or palm strike under the chin off balancing them. Of course you could turn to bil gee pretty easy and strike the eye. But I find I can feel when to bong sau easier when starting with dai sau. (I don't like using tan sau on a hook punch from a big guy, all they have to do is bend their elbow and, pop! hit me right in the eye. hubbie's working on this) And it's easier to extend forward pressure before during and after your bong sau so you turn the opponents body.

As for Sil Lim Tao. We use Sifu Fungs forms. www.wingchuninteractive.com

They show si lim tao at the site above. Pretty neat little animated man.

I forget that there are differences in the forms. We move from tan sau up to bong sau, then back to tan sau to palm strike with the fingers down to the chin at the end of the form.

I've got a video with a little Dai Sau in action, but the student was running from me while repeatedly hook punching. I end up chasing him too much, lol! We made that video when we were fooling around back when we had a "kwoon". Was trying to get women into class more, maybe I shouldn't have put a megadeath to the video. Couldn't help it, I'm a rocker!

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6737464

 

[CuongNhuka]

OK, I see what you're saying. Yah, I can see that working. I might just have to try that next time we do Chi Sao.

 

[qwksilver61]

Back to what Mr Geezer said earlier about Bong Sau,I am only familiar with three; the thrusting hard Bong,the drilling Bong which dissipates the oncoming punch acting like a drill in effect and transferring the energy through the arm all the way to the floor (w/adduction) and the collapsible Bong,elbow, whisking arm.Anything else?SorryNot familiar with Dai Sau

 

[qwksilver61]

Is there anywhere on you tube that I can see this technique?

 

[mook jong man]

From your guard you just raise your arm up maintaining the angle , keeping the fingertips on the centerline, driving up from the elbow.
When i used to teach kids i told them to put their fingertips together so it looked like the roof of a house and then raise both their arms so their head is inside the roof of the house.
It deflects any punch thats not coming straight down your centerline, you can also use a double dai sau to stop a two handed throat grab.
I don't know if its true or not but i heard that my master Jim Fung came up with the dai sau to deal with boxers punches, i just thought every wing chun school did it.
Another way i can describe it is in the form when you turn from tan sau to bong sau, just before it becomes the fook sau , that is the dai sau where the top of your thumb is facing you.
If you go looking for international wing chun academy, sydney australia there might be some clips of demos on youtube .

 

[Si-Je]

I thought everyone did dai sau too, until I started checking out other lineages of WC. WT doesn't seem to have it at all.

I usually tell the kids to point their fingers at their partners eyes, and raise their elbow like a chicken wing, making sure the elbow is raised as high as their own temple.

-- I tell them, "Ain't nothing but a chicken wing." When they ask about different angles of other types of wide swinging punches. I tell them it covers the boxers hook punch, most karate corkscrew punches to the head, and even the "Jerry Springer windmill punch!" lol!

Just keep the fingers pointed toward your opponent's eyes, make sure the elbow cover the temple, and keep your space. (hence, keep forward pressure, dai sau hand is out as far as your punch)

I had one woman that had a hard time with Dai Sau, she kept putting the forarm too close to her forehead. So I had her use dai sau to chop the big punching bag and punch with her other hand at the same time as a little drill. This way she started bringing the dai sau into her opponent's face as she punched. Little bonus, if you come in enough to the opponent's centerline you get a double strike, a chop and punch to the face at the same time.
Do this with heel kick to the leg and a taller opponent will "bow" right into the dai sau and the punch. Some of my favorite stuff. Or even better you can palm strike under the chin instead of punching, and bring them down and back simoltaneously.

 

[geezer]

It seems that Dai Sau is only used in the Fung system. I haven't seen anyone elese use it...

As for Sil Lim Tao. We use Sifu Fungs forms...I forget that there are differences in the forms. We move from tan sau up to bong sau, then back to tan sau to palm strike with the fingers down to the chin at the end of the form....

I've got a video with a little Dai Sau in action...

OK...I finally had enough time to watch the video (yes, I live in a cave and only have dial-up). Other than the pay-phone sequences (I mean WHO uses a pay-phone anymore?) nothing seemed particularly alien to my WT eyes. I really believe most WC/WT/VT, etc. differences have been exaggerated by individuals and organizations that stand to gain by making dubious claims of "superiority". As far as the "dai-sau"--I just caught a glimpse, but it looks a lot like a form of what we called "fook-sau" --not the "hook"- handed form of fook-sau typically seen in Siu Nim Tau or chi-sau, but a bent-elbowed, palm-down arm similar to jut-sau but pressing forward rather than downward. If you roll a tan-sau about 1/3 of the way to bong-sau you'll be there, although the height of the elbow varies according to the application. And yes, if applied with strong forward energy, it's a great hook-punch defense. However, since I've returned to WT after a very long absence, I see that now tan sau is being emphasized more in it's place. Personally, I still like the old "fook-sau" best against a hook.

As for the bong sau in Siu Lim Tau (Siu Nim Tau in WT), I couldn't get the animation to run so I dug out the old 1980 edition of Wing Chun Fung Fu by Karen Armstrong and Sifu Jim Fung. In the series of pictures illustrating Siu Lim Tau, it appears that Sifu Fung performs bong-sau, tan-sau, then reversed-palm in that order without first making a tan-sau. Either the tan sau was accidently or deliberately omitted, or perhaps Sifu Fung added it to the form later. Since returning to WT, I found that our system has "adjusted" its forms slightly. Also, I have noted occaisional errors or omissions in the WT books. In some cases the "errors" are deliberate so that the "true" version isn't given away....always seemed kind of dishonest to me, though. And why???? We all know that you cant learn WC/WT from a book anyway.

 

[CuongNhuka]

So, I've been analysing the movement, and I realised that Cuong Nhu has a version of Dai Sau, but I doubt it is related to Dai Sau, per sae. We have a block against high attacks from Shotokan (called a 'roof block'). We also teach Fook Sau. Our "soft style high block" is basicly a cross between the two. So, to create this "soft style high block" perfrom a Dai Sau so that it covers the top of your head (if someone were to look at you, they should not see the top of your head, but should be able to see almost all of your forhead). Your arm should be rolled out, and your hand in the Fook Sau position. This is a useful technique, but has little resistance to downward force, which is why we rotate out, and punch simulatiously.

Our "soft style middle block" is a Tan Sau (but, you twist to the side when you are about 75% out). Our "soft style low block" is basicly the same position as a Guan Sau, but your palm is out in a Fook Sao position (again, twist out). Our "soft style knife hand block" is a Fook Sau when you shift it out (and twist your body). Our "soft style outer forarm block" is a Fook Sau when it goes to the opposing side of your body (and twist that way).

Just something to think about next time you're in class.

 

[Si-Je]

No, no, no, no no no!

You "block with the elbow!"
It's not a high block. You keep the fingers together as you move your wrist, elbow, and shoulder at the same time.

Do a salute, then put your arm out at a 45 degree angle, in front of you, fingertips covering the centerline in front of you. Maintaining the forward pressure.
pressure should be equal between your fingers to your elbow at all times to avoid collapse.

When pressure is too great, go to bong sau to re-direct.

bong sau is the end product of dai sau. Dai su gets you in there, close. Bong sau distributes the force away from you. But if you do bong sau right away and the opponent is stronger, you will collapse.
So, if you do bong sau at the right time, your sneaking in dai sau and don't realize it.
Dai Sau we teach to students to cover them until they learn advanced technique. Yet, I still love the basics!
Dai Sau will get you out of trouble.

And P.S.
We DO still have payphones out here in Texas! LOL!
And the Dai Sau isn't used until the end, when I'm chasing a big guy who's throwing hook punches at me. Bad example.
It works better when they just throw the haymaker and move in towards you. lol!
Don't make me hit you with my Buick! LOL!
I like that defense.
Car jack ME duder!

 

[mook jong man]

OK...I finally had enough time to watch the video (yes, I live in a cave and only have dial-up). Other than the pay-phone sequences (I mean WHO uses a pay-phone anymore?) nothing seemed particularly alien to my WT eyes. I really believe most WC/WT/VT, etc. differences have been exaggerated by individuals and organizations that stand to gain by making dubious claims of "superiority". As far as the "dai-sau"--I just caught a glimpse, but it looks a lot like a form of what we called "fook-sau" --not the "hook"- handed form of fook-sau typically seen in Siu Nim Tau or chi-sau, but a bent-elbowed, palm-down arm similar to jut-sau but pressing forward rather than downward. If you roll a tan-sau about 1/3 of the way to bong-sau you'll be there, although the height of the elbow varies according to the application. And yes, if applied with strong forward energy, it's a great hook-punch defense. However, since I've returned to WT after a very long absence, I see that now tan sau is being emphasized more in it's place. Personally, I still like the old "fook-sau" best against a hook.

As for the bong sau in Siu Lim Tau (Siu Nim Tau in WT), I couldn't get the animation to run so I dug out the old 1980 edition of Wing Chun Fung Fu by Karen Armstrong and Sifu Jim Fung. In the series of pictures illustrating Siu Lim Tau, it appears that Sifu Fung performs bong-sau, tan-sau, then reversed-palm in that order without first making a tan-sau. Either the tan sau was accidently or deliberately omitted, or perhaps Sifu Fung added it to the form later. Since returning to WT, I found that our system has "adjusted" its forms slightly. Also, I have noted occaisional errors or omissions in the WT books. In some cases the "errors" are deliberate so that the "true" version isn't given away....always seemed kind of dishonest to me, though. And why???? We all know that you cant learn WC/WT from a book anyway.

I think its just a mistake with the photos mate, he always taught us to do it with the tan sau.
If you have that book the dai sau is on page 10 . That book is the text book for our academy and we were encouraged to read it and re- read it many times.
Just on a side note instructor karen armstrong the small women in the book was the one that got me to join up.
I walked in off the street and i didn't know jack about wing chun i asked her how they punch and she threw a punch at my nose so fast that i didnt see it all i felt was air hit me in the face and i said thats good enough for me sign me up.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Si-je I said they were related, I didn't say they were the same thing. I just thought it was worth mentioning. OK? Chill.

Thank you!

 

[Si-Je]

We have to Sifu Fung books with Karen Armstrong, great stuff!
I tried to read a book by Leung Ting, and I couldn't get through the intro. He really does know his stuff, mind you, but I just feel that he over analyzes the techniques. And takes away the true beauty of the art, it's simplicity.
I really like Fung and Armstrong's mindset, (and their up front honesty in their books) They're very simple and direct. Refreshing.
Their teaching methods are just different.

As for the Si Lim Tao form, we were taught tan sau to (dai sau) then bong sau, tan sau to palm strike. All as one fluid motion. If you do the movement slowly you'll feel the split second that your arm is in dai sau.

Karen Armstrong uses Dai Sau a few times in the book, as well as Fung.

Pg. 16 and a neat little pg. 31 dai sau to bong sau to punch. Guiterrez using the dai sau punch alot too.
Armstrong uses dai sau with a heel kick and a palm strike on pg. 62 to defend against a double hand choke.
and a good pic of it on pg. 66 done by Armstrong.

 

[geezer]

We have to Sifu Fung books with Karen Armstrong, great stuff!
I tried to read a book by Leung Ting, and I couldn't get through the intro. He really does know his stuff, mind you, but I just feel that he over analyzes the techniques. And takes away the true beauty of the art, it's simplicity.
I really like Fung and Armstrong's mindset, (and their up front honesty in their books) They're very simple and direct. Refreshing.
Their teaching methods are just different.

Regarding the LT books, different strokes I guess... I kinda like all the levels of analysis.

As far as the Armstrong-Fung book goes... most of the page numbers you and Mook gave me don't match up with my copy. I'll bet there were a lot of small editions that differ a bit. But I did find out some interesting things including several examples of "dai-sau" AND some illustrations of Sifu Fung doing a "hook-kick" as a leg defense against a straight kick, then following it with a low side thrust kick to his opponent's supporting leg. This is not the kick I referred to on your other thread as being like my "bastard round-kick" from escrima.

The "hook kick" defense illustrated here looks exactly like the standard WT technique, "Bong Gurk". Now I see why you used the term "hook", as that describes how the foot hooks and catches your opponent's leg. Now I'm going to be reading this book over all night...

 

[mook jong man]

Sifu Jim used to have a video out as well i dont know if any of you people can get it in AMERICA or UK.
He showed sil lum tao and various self defence techniques and it was narrated by Inst. Karen.
With regard to the books i think it helps a lot when you have an english speaking person helping to write the book who also does Wing Chun.
I reckon a lot of stuff gets lost in the translation, for example i have a fair bit of info on the forms and stuff that was written by Sigung Tsui Seung Tin and obviously translated by somebody else and the way some of it is worded sounds a bit funny .
I think if i had my time over again i would have tried to learn cantonese.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I still can't see the video (internet is not my strong point) but reading peoples descriptions I am starting to understand the gist

It is the transitional position between muen sao (asking arm) and bong sao

To be honest, it is a bad habit to get into as you are only blocking with the movement (ie to strike with the arm whilst performing the 'dai' sao would lead to a conflict of energy - you'd be fighting yourself), so it is really a more defensive position. Why not just hit with a fak sao?

Anyway, it does seem like a lot of people are more confused than helped by this thread. Maybe it would be better to arrange a big meet to do these things in person