Cult of Personality?

[Flying Crane]

Do some groups in the Martial Arts become a Cult of Personality?

It seems to me that sometimes this might be true.

When a popular or influential individual becomes established in the martial arts, is seems that sometimes his/her students and followers end up a little bit glassy-eyed and put him on a pedestal and regard him as some sort of demi-god. Sometimes this happens after the person passes away, and sometimes it happens when he is still alive and active.

I certainly understand loyalty and commitment to one's school and system and teacher, but it just seems that sometimes things get taken a bit far. These popular and influential people may have been/continue to be extremely talented and insightful in their study and teaching of the martial arts. Obviously an individual would not have become their student if they didn't have faith that he was talented and had much to teach.

But sometimes it seems, especially after this person's death, that they get elevated above what might be realistic. Their students hold up any of his writings with almost a religious fervor, and claim that what he taught was perfect and unquestionable and unimprovable (and therefor what the student is now teaching to the next generation is also perfect and unquestionable and unimprovable), and anyone doing it differently has got it wrong and it can't possibly be equally effective.

Personally, I feel that EVERYTHING can be questioned, and every individual practitioner needs to be mature enough to recognize that things are not perfect, and not everything will work equally well for all people. We all gotta find our own way in the end, taking what we have learned, perfect it to the best of our personal abilities, make any appropriate changes so it is best for us, and be willing to stand on our own two feet with what we have. Finding our own personal strength and confidence thru the fame of our teacher, or the reputation of our system, just doesn't cut it. It's either you alone, or nothing.

These are some thoughts that I have had for several years now. Just thought I'd share them. Comments, of course, are welcome.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Even though the martial arts is all about you and the work you put into it. We all seek motivation. That cult of personality is a blessing a well as a curse. I've been in a school where when one instructor left the new instructor had to start from scratch with all new people. I stayed and wondered why all the students quit. They lost their motivation.
Sean

 

[IcemanSK]

MA is certainly ripe for creating "the cult of personality." Chances are you only see your instructor in that one place, in uniform, & doing things others in the outside world don't do. Add to it an "I say it, you do it" attitude & the legend might just grow. I've always found it odd when I see someone treat their instructor better than their own spouse. Sad to say, I've seen it more than once. I've heard stories of instructor having college students clean his house for free & THEN charging them for classes.

Some people want so badly to belong & others want so badly rule over others. Its so sad when it happens. It cheapens the ART & it degrades people.

 

[HKphooey]

Writing my black belt thesis one of the best things I did in my MA training was . I had written it on many other styles and their philosophies. It was an eye-opener to see things outside my small MA world.

I agree that we sometimes put individuals on a pedestal and regard them as gods. They put their gi pants on the same way.

The one irony I see in the MA... many start training for self-confidence, but end up basing all they say and do on another person's beliefs.

A great quote I found and posted in another thread:
Patterning your life around other's opinions is nothing more than slavery. - Lawana Blackwell

Crane, good posts.

 

[Flying Crane]

The one irony I see in the MA... many start training for self-confidence, but end up basing all they say and do on another person's beliefs.

A great quote I found and posted in another thread:
Patterning your life around other's opinions is nothing more than slavery. - Lawana Blackwell

yeah, I think this is where I'm coming from. Thanks for these. they're good.

 

[Jenna]

Do some groups in the Martial Arts become a Cult of Personality?

It seems to me that sometimes this might be true.

When a popular or influential individual becomes established in the martial arts, is seems that sometimes his/her students and followers end up a little bit glassy-eyed and put him on a pedestal and regard him as some sort of demi-god. Sometimes this happens after the person passes away, and sometimes it happens when he is still alive and active.

I certainly understand loyalty and commitment to one's school and system and teacher, but it just seems that sometimes things get taken a bit far. These popular and influential people may have been/continue to be extremely talented and insightful in their study and teaching of the martial arts. Obviously an individual would not have become their student if they didn't have faith that he was talented and had much to teach.

But sometimes it seems, especially after this person's death, that they get elevated above what might be realistic. Their students hold up any of his writings with almost a religious fervor, and claim that what he taught was perfect and unquestionable and unimprovable (and therefor what the student is now teaching to the next generation is also perfect and unquestionable and unimprovable), and anyone doing it differently has got it wrong and it can't possibly be equally effective.

Personally, I feel that EVERYTHING can be questioned, and every individual practitioner needs to be mature enough to recognize that things are not perfect, and not everything will work equally well for all people. We all gotta find our own way in the end, taking what we have learned, perfect it to the best of our personal abilities, make any appropriate changes so it is best for us, and be willing to stand on our own two feet with what we have. Finding our own personal strength and confidence thru the fame of our teacher, or the reputation of our system, just doesn't cut it. It's either you alone, or nothing.

These are some thoughts that I have had for several years now. Just thought I'd share them. Comments, of course, are welcome.

I think you are absolutely correct in your take on the endless eulogising that goes on. I'm not saying the great devisers and creators of the arts aren't to be revered, not at all. But people are people, nobody's perfect and nobody as you say, should be beyond questioning.

For myself, I've had the highest instructors under whom I have trained relay many stories to me of Morehei Ueshiba as a curt man with little time for pedantries or pleasantries. Now few may deny what he added to the martial arts community as a whole but often our views are tainted by those who never met or studied with the man. Perhaps people have a NEED and a tendency to look for heroes, could that be it? We then make these heroes into icons of perfection and as such demand they are not questioned. Maybe. I dunno what do you think?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Flying Crane]

Perhaps people have a NEED and a tendency to look for heroes, could that be it? We then make these heroes into icons of perfection and as such demand they are not questioned. Maybe. I dunno what do you think?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

I think this hits it pretty much on the mark

 

[Kacey]

I agree with the previous posters that MAs are ripe for personality cults. By their very nature, MAs attract people who are willing to work to perfect difficult skills for a very long period of time; people who are (justifiably) impressed by such perseverance express that they are impressed. Some people hear such compliments and continue on with their personal quest for perfection; others hear such compliments as adulation and begin looking for more. Some of the latter group may begin to deliberately attract and cultivate those whose positive response will further feed that adulation; those followers will then attract others, and so on. It takes a special personality to receive that level of respect and not go out deliberately seeking more, especially among those who truly deserve such respect.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I agree with the previous posters that MAs are ripe for personality cults. By their very nature, MAs attract people who are willing to work to perfect difficult skills for a very long period of time; people who are (justifiably) impressed by such perseverance express that they are impressed. Some people hear such compliments and continue on with their personal quest for perfection; others hear such compliments as adulation and begin looking for more. Some of the latter group may begin to deliberately attract and cultivate those whose positive response will further feed that adulation; those followers will then attract others, and so on. It takes a special personality to receive that level of respect and not go out deliberately seeking more, especially among those who truly deserve such respect.

Therein lies the problem: even if they were not glory hungry in the beginning, some become so over time as a result of the adulation of many of their students.

I had to leave the absolute best and most knowledgeable Karate instructor I have ever had because the man had become an egomaniac, IMO, and his leadership of his dojang had many cultlike attributes. Pity, because even one more year there would have substantially increased my martial arts ability.

 

[Flying Crane]

Therein lies the problem: even if they were not glory hungry in the beginning, some become so over time as a result of the adulation of many of their students.

Sometimes the students raise the teacher to that level after his passing. Then it seems like they are worshipping a deceased messiah.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Morihei Ueshiba has a whole cult built around his personality. Many people worship at the shrine of Bruce Lee. Gichen Funakoshi and the old Karate teachers are held up too. Even further back in history we have examples of warriors such as Miyamoto Musashi with his ability to defeat others with nothing more than a bokken. There are living examples too, but it is far better if the martial artist is dead because they can never be proven wrong in any way, shape, or form. We have many examples of instructors abusing their positions of trust in the martial arts, positions of power can definitely corrupt. So, when learning the art of self-defense, it would be wisest to first learn how to defend against the traps and attacks of hero worship and personality cults often found in the world of martial arts

 

[Oily Dragon]

Morihei Ueshiba has a whole cult built around his personality. Many people worship at the shrine of Bruce Lee. Gichen Funakoshi and the old Karate teachers are held up too. Even further back in history we have examples of warriors such as Miyamoto Musashi with his ability to defeat others with nothing more than a bokken. There are living examples too, but it is far better if the martial artist is dead because they can never be proven wrong in any way, shape, or form. We have many examples of instructors abusing their positions of trust in the martial arts, positions of power can definitely corrupt. So, when learning the art of self-defense, it would be wisest to first learn how to defend against the traps and attacks of hero worship and personality cults often found in the world of martial arts

Musashi never really harvested a cult of personality like Ueshiba did, and definitely nothing like Bruce Lee.

At the height of his power and the last ten years of his life, he only had a handful of retainers, awarded to him for defeating weapons masters, and at that point he was really trying to focus on poetry, painting, and writing.

He was never really the type to attract mass followers until centuries later, and if they'd come for him back when he was alive, he'd probably steal away and hide in a cave.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Musashi never really harvested a cult of personality like Ueshiba did, and definitely nothing like Bruce Lee.

At the height of his power and the last ten years of his life, he only had a handful of retainers, awarded to him for defeating weapons masters, and at that point he was really trying to focus on poetry, painting, and writing.

He was never really the type to attract mass followers until centuries later, and if they'd come for him back when he was alive, he'd probably steal away and hide in a cave.

The more interesting phenomena is when the student builds up the cult of personality all by themselves. We humans have a real strange desire for becoming fanatics without needing any encouragement from outside forces - is it built into our DNA to look for leaders, or do you think it varies depending on your cultural upbringing?

 

[Balrog]

Do some groups in the Martial Arts become a Cult of Personality?

It seems to me that sometimes this might be true.

I agree that there is the possibility. And it can be bad. Anyone remember John C. Kim and Chung Moo Quan? Pure definition of a cult. He bilked a lot of people out of a lot of money.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The more interesting phenomena is when the student builds up the cult of personality all by themselves. We humans have a real strange desire for becoming fanatics without needing any encouragement from outside forces - is it built into our DNA to look for leaders, or do you think it varies depending on your cultural upbringing?

I think if you look at cultish behavior in the martial arts, it's important to split hairs. Very few martial arts traditions fit the definition of cult. Your average local TKD dojang or karate dojo is probably not either.

Ninjutsu is probably the most cultish of martial arts. It's a legit martial art with a lot of rich history going back a long time, but in 2023 it's also a bit of a joke with a big pool of goofballs.

There are maybe 3 surviving scriptures on actual ninjutsu (shoninki, basen shukai, and ninpiden), and each is ho hum with practically no physical instruction.

But add a few personalities and suddenly, thousands of students worldwide. It's like throwing a match on gas. Is it DNA? Probably, everything in our neighborhood is. Cultural upbringing? Sure.

 

[Buka]

Nobody was better at cult monetizing the Martial Arts than Fast Freddy V.

Of course when you're a 15th degree Black Belt, you have that power.

 

[Steve]

Nobody was better at cult monetizing the Martial Arts than Fast Freddy V.

Of course when you're a 15th degree Black Belt, you have that power.

Not heard of Fast Freddy V. Anything like Count Dante?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not heard of Fast Freddy V. Anything like Count Dante?

I’m pretty sure he’s referring to Fred Villari.

 

[Buka]

Not heard of Fast Freddy V. Anything like Count Dante?

Count Dante was The Deadliest Man Alive!

All the comic books said so. They wouldn't lie.