Creating new styles/forms/techniques

[chufeng]

Ken,

I think he means that once the weapons are trained, all you have to do is think the technique and it happens...

I think corkscrew punch and my punch is already on target...
I think knife hand and it is already on target...
I don't have to think about the mechanics of each technique.

This is WHY it is important to practice correctly...otherwise you "wire in" wrong movements.

I'm certain that he wasn't being so esoteric in his discussion about knowledge...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

I see. Instinctive action.

The British Army in their research concluded that if you repeat an action 2400 times, it will become an instinctive action.

 

[Matt Stone]

I guess I wasn't really all that clear, was I? Trouble is, at the simplistic level of my understanding at this point, I find it hard to put it into adequate explanation...

Chufeng handed me my butt last weekend. Really stepped all over me, introduced me to the interesting nature of how being hit once can hit you three times in a row... ("I can get up! No, I can't! I can get up! No, I can't! I CAN get up! NO, I CAN'T!")

Why does he do this when I talk so much about understanding? Because Yiliquan is a 100% defensive art. We never attack. What is it that I am doing wrong? Attacking! When I train with others, and I am able to be on the defensive side, I find that (along some rather predictable - at least by me - preferential methods) I am able to just "be there" at the right spot to be able to do whatever I want. Except I don't stop to think "gee, I'd really like to do X." I find I am there, and am surprised that I did something to the other guy already.

So punches, kicks, whatever. At some point they really become kind of irrelevant. Feeling the opening, being at the opening, is more important than the techniques used once there. I guess it is this awareness that takes a while to get.

Sure, you can learn to punch passably well in a short time. You can learn some preset counters to situations in a short time, too. But to enter into that moment where it is just a movement of his and a movement of yours and then the opponent is puking up his guts... That is something that can't be learned overnight.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[FST]

Very nice post Yiliquan,

The level of proficiency you are talking about takes some time to develp IMHO. At this level you are able to execute a technique and it strikes the available target with no conscious thought in that you did not have to think about it but it was just there. I know that I will get nailed for this example but I equate it to Star Wars in which Luke is getting ready to fire his torpedo and is using the guidence system and then Obiwon tells him to use the force and he guides them with it. Not the greatest example but it is strange when you are sparring and you cannot remember what techniques you have done but they occured. I feel that a person can become a good fighter in a couple of years but it takes longer to develop this ability. This is why a 50 year old who has practiced the martial arts for 30 years can beat a 25 year old who is faster/stronger/more endurance that has practiced for 5 years.

 

[KennethKu]

That might be the truth in combat for Yili art practitioners, but not necessary the truth in combat for another person. If it takes decades of practice for Yili to reach its truth in combat, that is the Yili way. But that is not necessary another person's way. And certainly not the ONLY way.

People seek for different things from their martial arts, and receive different results from their training.

What you posted is true, Yiliquan1. However it isn't exclusive to Yili nor does it requires decades of training to reach that stage. Again, I am not saying this to make light of your skills. Not at all.

Instinctive actions can be, and have been, program trained successfully wthin reasonably short duration.

 

[sweeper]

well technicly they aren't instinctive are they? They are reflexive, and combined with massive parallel processing in your brain you effectivly bypass the analysis/decision phase of a responce.

so basicly your deductive reasoning capabilities stay intact but somewhat seperate from perception/responce calculation, so by the time you see an opening, it is already exploited.

 

[KennethKu]

Instinctive actions/reactions: In the presence of a stimulus, eg. attacking hands/legs, or an object, you execute an intercept, a counter or an attack, without invoking conscious analytic effort. A punch flying to your face, and you slip while an intercepting punch launched without the need of thinking about it.

One time I was riding my mountain bike and a car just crossed in front of me. My right foot went out with a front kick. Made contact and I flew backward. Landed on my ***. The bike made total impact with the car. I thought about it later and remember that there wasn't time to think, sense, analyze nor decide. I certainly have never sat around and pre-planned as to what to do when faced with a car while riding on a bike. The thing is, many people would react more or less the same way under a similar situation. It certainly didn't take decades to learn to use your feet to save your ***.

If you spar or fight, you would know what instinctive actions are. Only in training when you think about "with this x attack, then I would do Y counter."

 

[sweeper]

that is a reaction not an instinct. And you did process the information, but like you said it was not a conscious effort.

An instinct is an action or inclination innate to an individual, the will to save your life is instictual, the action of jumping off your bike is not. What I'm saying is normaly people process conscious thought in a linear/logical manner, but it is quite posable to process it in a non-linear manner where you don't realy know why or how you come to a conclusion because there aren't any apparant steps involved..

 

[chufeng]

Good post Sweeper...
You are closer to my point than Ken is (sorry Ken)...

The reaction to "intent" is what we train in YiLi...Ken seems to think its an amazing feat...but, it has been taught for a very long time...just in different ways.

When Yiliquan1 attacks...his intent is so strong I have time to pick from a list of possible counters...however, he has recently taken my advice and "cloaked" the intent until it's a) too late, or b) after I react to the feint (which has just enough intent to fool me)...

On the other hand, when he surprises me with a "hidden-intent" attack, I don't really think about anything at all...IT just happens (much to Yiliquan1's chagrin)...

As he has pointed out, YiLi is a defensive system designed on joining with an attack and neutralizing it (in many different ways). It is not an art of ATTACK...It feels wrong to attack, and it is against our philosophy...so Poor guy is at a HUGE disadvantage when I say "attack me."

But, I am also able to show him where his attack is weak...

He's getting much better at hiding intent, and I think it will soon be my time to be the attacker and give him the opportunity to hand me my ***.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[sweeper]

I think the various sides of this discusion are simply out of sync. That is to say It seems like both of you are essentialy talking about the same things but diffrent aspects..

 

[chufeng]

I think we are talking about a similar thing, but at different levels.

YiLi teaches to react to the intent of the attacker...

According to old traditional Chinese boxing methods...intent moves first, then qi, then the physical body...
We train to feel the movement of qi...(no it can't be measured)...so when one intends to attack, we feel it. Most of the time, we feel it before the attacker moves; so, we know where the attack is coming from and where it is going...very easy to counter with that information.

Ken is talking about reacting instinctively (without having to think, it's not really instinct) to visual cues (no matter how slight)...that is where we start...but that is also where someone can feint an attack to open you up...It is easier to lure in someone who uses visual cues.

We actually practice blind-folded, or in a dark room, from time to time specifically to limit visual reaction...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng ....The reaction to "intent" is what we train in YiLi...Ken seems to think its an amazing feat...but, it has been taught for a very long time...just in different ways.

To "sense" an opponent's intent before hand is the equavalent of cracking the German Enigma and reading the Japanese Navy code in WWII. If you know before hand what strike is coming from which weapon, then you have reached the highest level of fighting skills. Very few people have achieved such mastery. My most heartfelt congratulations to you, Chufeng. I mean this sincerely. (Believe me, if someone else told me they can "sense" intent, they would get a roll-eye from me.)

....As he has pointed out, YiLi is a defensive system designed on joining with an attack and neutralizing it (in many different ways). It is not an art of ATTACK...It feels wrong to attack, and it is against our philosophy...so Poor guy is at a HUGE disadvantage when I say "attack me.".......

Normally, to limit one to defence only is handicapping oneself, as combat has no rule. Offence is the best defence, are not just empty words. Take the most ruthless H2H combat, the military. They teach "speed kills" with which, you attack with full force, full speed, full ferocity. They didn't choose this philosophy because it is cool or trendy, but rather it works consistently.

Your defence must be exceptionally powerful to compensate for such handicap.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
.....Ken is talking about reacting instinctively (without having to think, it's not really instinct) to visual cues (no matter how slight)...that is where we start...but that is also where someone can feint an attack to open you up...It is easier to lure in someone who uses visual cues.....

The attack might be 1. a deception, 2, with extremely fast "starting speed".

This is nothing new. The solution is to attack first with your own feints and "speedy kills" tactic, ie to "awe and shock". The solution is hardly new nor proprietary neither. The British SAS has been training their troops in "speed kills" all along.

 

[chufeng]

Ken,

Mastery? Hardly...

We actually start teaching this from the very first (beginner) promotion...so, almost any of our black sash level folks can do it.

It seems "magical" but it is something each of you can do.
It requires a regimen of qigong combined with sensitivity drills.
Sifu Starr has a specific training method which includes staff and belt work...PM me if you want the specifics...

I had the opportunity to train with one of our senior black sashes and one of his students a few months ago...I had not met either of them prior to that meeting...But the technique for listening to intent held true...neither could touch me if I chose not to let them.

Once the defensive aspects are fully developed, the "offensive" piece is added...now it is not offense in the sense of an all out attack...it is making the other person believe that you ARE going to launch an offensive attack...when he reacts to that, then go over the top of his defense...It is feinting with false intent...When you know where to hit, it requires very little force to bring the opponent down...

Then there is the YiLi shield...it takes the idea of manipulating energy to another level and really requires a full understanding of the philosophy of the system. It allows one to stand and absorb the attack (no defense)...options for countermeasures vary depending on the attack...but what better feint than to let the opponent think he actually hit you...once his attack is fully extended, strike fast and with accuracy (or not, sometimes taking the guy's best shot and just smiling at him ends it).

I frequently laugh and joke when sparring...it is a fun time for me...and it screws up the opponents focus.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

Yiliquan1 can share an experience he had very early in his training...I use a one inch drill from time to time...I will allow the defender to retreat one inch, no more, and he has to counter before the second strike comes...

Distance and timing are joined...but it requires an "active" stance...you can't just step back one inch...you have to shift back and keep the legs loaded so you can release like a spring...

It is best to keep retreats to a minimum because you have to regain the ground lost by backing up...if you do retreat, keep it small...one inch is all you need. Better to change distance by advancing at an angle.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

Ken

The attack might be 1. a deception

That is why reading intent is so important...very few people can fake intent...if they can, your best bet is to turn and run.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

The very first exposure to Chufeng that I had was around 1986 or so... I had been training for less than 3 or 4 months. He was visiting the school, and it ended up being just he and I left in the school after class.

He allowed me one inch between the heel of my rear foot and the wall, told me to "load" my fighting stance, and react to his punch. The idea was to retreat only that one inch, and follow the punch back in, allowing it to nearly literally "suck" me back in to strike him...

I didn't fare too well, and ended up being impaled on his punch repeatedly...

The entire idea is, missed by an inch, missed by a mile. The deviation of a strike need only be so much that it allows for the strike to miss its target. Causing the strike to miss by more than that creates an additional "space" in which other strikes may be inserted before the defender is able to launch his own strikes.

As for "cloaking" intent, I have only managed a very few times to calm down the "locomotive" of my intent so that Chufeng has a more difficult time reacting to it... From over a decade of military training, my naturally "take and hold" oriented attitude, and the methods by which I apply Yiliquan, I have a rather "direct" approach - charge in, punish and destroy. Apparently is is pretty easy to read no matter how calm I try to make my exterior.

However, the times I have managed to camoflauge my intent, I have entered in almost unopposed. It is only in hindsight, however, that I can realize that I did what I did... At the moment it is nearly indescribable... It just "happens," like water flowing smoothly over a rock. Then BANG you are on top of your opponent.

Neat stuff.

Additionally, though, I must admit that I possess too much of a "wade in and slaughter" approach to fighting... When I match up against our juniors, because I know they are incapable of doing much that will give me any real cause for concern (after the beatings I have taken at the hands of RyuShiKan, Chufeng and "the Kerker Principle," I'm not really concerned about too much else), I have a bad habit of just very literally walking up to them, no stance, no correct movement, just walking up and letting them throw whatever they like...

With Chufeng, on the other hand, I enter in with great amounts of caution, borne of too much time spent getting intimate with the ground in our training areas...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

and I wouldn't wish anyone to suffer the punching force of the YiLi Fatboy...for all of his girth, he moves very fast and hits like a mule...lots of fun for us twisted folk.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
and I wouldn't wish anyone to suffer the punching force of the YiLi Fatboy...for all of his girth, he moves very fast and hits like a mule...lots of fun for us twisted folk.

:asian:
chufeng

Awww, you're just being nice... In all seriousness, I don't think I hit all that hard. I really feel like my strikes need a lot more work before they are where they should be for my satisfaction.

I've always had a dream to be able to punch someone in the sternum and have their spine snap. Until I can do that, I'll always feel that my strikes need more work...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I've always had a dream to be able to punch someone in the sternum and have their spine snap.

You've had that dream too??? :boing2:

But truly it's a bit frustrating to have all my best work happen by instinct and flow when I don't consciously intend it- because I haven't reached the point of being able to do that twice. :cuss:

You know- when someone compliments you and you say- uh, yeah, I meant that.

As for cloaking my intent, so far I'm about as subtle as a jackhammer. If I pull off the feint-strike, I'm so jazzed it worked that I get frozen in the moment and eat a punch or three. :shrug:

:rofl:

Well, I'm a work in progress I guess.