Creating new styles/forms/techniques

[zen_hydra]

I do not feel ready yet to begin doing such, but it is something of great interest to me. I realize that with all the various martial styles and schools out there, there is very little new under the sun. However, I feel that my martial path will lead this direction all the same. I feel, that by eventually doing so, I will refine my understanding of the principles involved. I am curious to hear of any experiences that those of you who have already done this might be willing to share. One particular interest of mine is to one day merge swordsmanship principles from Hungarian sabre fencing, Chinese broadsword, and Japanese kenjutsu. I am also interested in the concept of creating forms based on the observations of animals. Obviously, that is not a new concept, but I am sure that my eyes will see things from a much different perspective than the eyes of a man from another time and place did. Please, share your thoughts.

 

[Matt Stone]

Why base your forms' movements on the movements of animals? Why not base them on the movements of people?

Admittedly, I practice Xingyi's 12 Shape/Animal form. However, the form doesn't mimic the movements of these animals. Rather, it tries to represent the feelings that the animal represents, as well as tactics the animal uses in fighting/hunting (e.g. tigers attack prey from behind, so the Tiger Shape strikes from a sidewards position to the target).

Maybe that is what you meant... But folks that try to mimic the actual movements of animals forget that they lack the structural characteristics that make those animals capable of those movements (tigers don't have collarbones, making their inward raking movement stronger than ours, not to mention the claws, fangs and several hundred extra pounds of body weight!).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[zen_hydra]

Reproducing the conceptualized spirit of an animal is what I have in mind. For example, a coyote form might imitate the quickness, and playfulness of a real-life coyote, but also the deceitfulness, and trickery of Grandfather Coyote (from Native American myth).

 

[A.R.K.]

My advice is to go for it. We would not have the disciplines we enjoy today had not someone had the desire to put their knowledge, skill and heart into it. Perhaps you will be the next

And don't let anyone tell you that you can't. There are people that will always attempt to tear you down. Leave them behind and proceed.

:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

I can't imagine combining European sabre, Chinese broadsword, and Japanese kenjutsu. These are three arts using different types of swords which were developed to fit their techniques and philosophies of combat - which are all quite different.......

 

[chufeng]

Zen...

I'm with Mya on this one...
What you want to do is really on the edge...
But, as you said, you see things through different eyes...

Good luck...

...and when you get it done, bring it back and test it against the older systems...if it is true, it will hold up...

Just don't get a bug up your butt and promote yourself to some pie in the sky rank...keep it on the level of common folk...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
Just don't get a bug up your butt and promote yourself to some pie in the sky rank...keep it on the level of common folk...

I've never understood how a 4th dan in one style can close his school then open up again later the same week teaching a new style with a 10th dan rank...

Why are founders required to hold rank? They're the founder after all, right? Shouldn't the founder be the repository of all knowledge regarding that art? Why would he/she need rank of any kind? Wouldn't it only be the students of the founder that would need rank of some sort?

That's always puzzled me...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

OK...fine Sifu is now a white belt...but you tell him, OK?

chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
OK...fine Sifu is now a white belt...but you tell him, OK?

chufeng

Okay! As long as its long distance... As old as he is, he'll forget before October... I hope!

Seriously, though, I don't recall his ever laying claim to a particular grade... He is the Founder and headmaster. I've never asked if he is a Level Whatever Master Grade...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Some snakes move around by flopping almost like a sideways whip. Why should I copy that?

New forms are okay, it's just that you have to understand what the purpose of the form is. A form really isn't the best way to learn self-defense, but it's a good way of getting down technique and the flowing motion.

It's not as easy as merging arts... For instance, BJJ and judo are very similiar, but they have different emphasis. Most BJJ practitioners like more submission moves while most judo instructors practice a lot of throwing. It varies form instructor to instructor, but there is a general emphasis. And you can't emphasize two different things at once, you have to pick one over another at times. I'm not saying a BJJ practitioner hates throws, or a judoka hates submission moves. What I'm saying is sometimes, you can't emphasize driving manual transmissions, then go on to say you emphasize driving automatics. That's more of a play on words.

 

[Shinzu]

i really enjoy developing new forms, but i always have a picture in my mind of what i am doing and why. i just dont throw moves together and call it a form. it must have meaning.

 

[yilisifu]

White belt's fine! A return to the beginner's mind....

 

[zen_hydra]

I can't imagine combining European sabre, Chinese broadsword, and Japanese kenjutsu. These are three arts using different types of swords which were developed to fit their techniques and philosophies of combat - which are all quite different.......

That of course will be the challenge. To try and take the best from each way of thought and forge them into one. The weapons do all have a connecting thread, and that is enough (I feel) to allow me to eventually do this. They are all single-edged swords, that can be wielded one-handed, and have a thrusting tip. So a darn dao and katana have comparable movements, but trying to adapt jian techniques to katana (were one might use the jians reverse edge) is less feasible. It is the fact that the sabre, katana, and broadsword are similar, but not the same, that compels me to try.

As I said in my first post, I am not ready to begin developing these ideas. They are just passions of mine that will one day be developed, when I feel I have the mastery I need to do so. I was primarily interested in hearing from those that have experience in this. What are your experiences with combining elements of different styles? What about developing a completely new school of thought? Please, those of you who have experience in this, share.

As to self promotion, I have no aspirations for such. Rank is nothing but a measuring stick (you must be this tall to ride). My goals are to become the best martial artist that I can be. If what we study is truly art, then creating a new, and personal expression of it, using the tools and techniques that we picked up along the way, is necessary (IMO).

 

[A.R.K.]

Why are founders required to hold rank? They're the founder after all, right? Shouldn't the founder be the repository of all knowledge regarding that art? Why would he/she need rank of any kind? Wouldn't it only be the students of the founder that would need rank of some sort?

Good point and valid question. Does anyone know where this originated? I have always understood that a 10th Dan, at least in regards to 'new' systems [i.e. not directly from ancient times] were merely a formality or honorary, but not an actual rank.

In Yiliquan 1's example;

I've never understood how a 4th dan in one style can close his school then open up again later the same week teaching a new style with a 10th dan rank...

The 10th is merely honorary as founder but 4th would be the actual 'fighting' rank so to speak. Normal upward progression would ensue from the 4th by those above our new 'grandmaster' in th original system...if there is one. Perhaps that is a simplistic and even unrealistic approach. There do seem to be quite a number of 10th dans running around.

Several organizations 'recognized' me originally at this exulted rank as 'founder'. Great...fine...wonderful :shrug: It resides with all the other 'stuff' in the bottom of the closet. I don't need or want to be known as a '10th Dan grand mac daddy'. Well...maybe the mac daddy part

Who was the first to appoint himself or be appointed a 10th Dan? And who did the appointing?

:asian:

 

[zen_hydra]

So is no one willing to share some incite on the development of forms? I am sure some of you have done this. How about the people that founded there own schools/systems? Did you all just adapt forms directly from other systems, or did you change them? What are the points you have focused on when developing a new form? What vastly different ideas/concepts have you brought together to make something new? This forum is for sharing information and ideas, so please share, but let's keep this on topic.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

I had to develop my own form as part of the requirements for my shodan test. I emphasized the techniques and combinations which I felt were "me"- which focused on my strengths and preferences. Since this was to be a personal form and not for others, I felt free to make it an extension of my personal practice. Over the years, I have "tweaked" it here and there, since my practice has changed (for the better, I hope). If you wish to develop forms for others, please be aware that different forms will develop different attributes in the practioner. A good place to start would be to decide what qualities you wish your students to develop at each level, and design your forms accordingly. Hope this helps.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

 

[sweeper]

Well comming form someone who hasn't developed a new fighting style

It seems that if you were to create a fourth styleof sword fighting from european/hungarian/chinese backgrounds you would need a new sword.. I mean kicking and punching are related, they both have mechanical simularities, they both focus force through an articulation of your body, but most people wouldn't think of going to an olympic TKD school to gain insight into olympic boxing.. And yet on the otherhand plyometric techniques that developed from track and field have been applied to martial arts and boxing (actualy virtualy every athletic activity that could require maximal contraction of a muscle).

I guess my point is you have to look at simularities rather than diffrences when merging anything, and you have to have a goal in mind. to get back to the sword thing, are you interested in strengthening your ability with one sword? all three? or a new sword? And how can you guage progress, how will you know a new system is good because of the system or because of your previous training?

Over all I don't see how creating new systems/forms/techniques could realy hurt you or anyone else, to some extent most of us do this when we learned something new at class and have to think of how we are going to integrateit into what we do personaly.

So good luck

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by zen_hydra
That of course will be the challenge. To try and take the best from each way of thought and forge them into one. The weapons do all have a connecting thread, and that is enough (I feel) to allow me to eventually do this. They are all single-edged swords, that can be wielded one-handed, and have a thrusting tip. So a darn dao and katana have comparable movements, but trying to adapt jian techniques to katana (were one might use the jians reverse edge) is less feasible. It is the fact that the sabre, katana, and broadsword are similar, but not the same, that compels me to try.

As I said in my first post, I am not ready to begin developing these ideas. They are just passions of mine that will one day be developed, when I feel I have the mastery I need to do so. I was primarily interested in hearing from those that have experience in this. What are your experiences with combining elements of different styles? What about developing a completely new school of thought? Please, those of you who have experience in this, share.

As to self promotion, I have no aspirations for such. Rank is nothing but a measuring stick (you must be this tall to ride). My goals are to become the best martial artist that I can be. If what we study is truly art, then creating a new, and personal expression of it, using the tools and techniques that we picked up along the way, is necessary (IMO).

From my understanding, a katana is supposed to be held by two hands. A katana is light enough to be controllable and very quick, yet heavy enough to cut through bone, I can't imagine one yeilding two Japanese swords with one hand and having as much control and speed of someone with two lighter swords.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by sweeper
Well comming form someone who hasn't developed a new fighting style

It seems that if you were to create a fourth styleof sword fighting from european/hungarian/chinese backgrounds you would need a new sword.. I mean kicking and punching are related, they both have mechanical simularities, they both focus force through an articulation of your body, but most people wouldn't think of going to an olympic TKD school to gain insight into olympic boxing.. And yet on the otherhand plyometric techniques that developed from track and field have been applied to martial arts and boxing (actualy virtualy every athletic activity that could require maximal contraction of a muscle).

I guess my point is you have to look at simularities rather than diffrences when merging anything, and you have to have a goal in mind. to get back to the sword thing, are you interested in strengthening your ability with one sword? all three? or a new sword? And how can you guage progress, how will you know a new system is good because of the system or because of your previous training?

Over all I don't see how creating new systems/forms/techniques could realy hurt you or anyone else, to some extent most of us do this when we learned something new at class and have to think of how we are going to integrateit into what we do personaly.

So good luck

It would be like trying to combine match pistol, skeet shooting, rifling, tactical assaults, etc. into one art. That is impossible due to the different weapons, and how they function and how they run. Obviously, they all have the same principles of firearm safety (such as the rule of never having the finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot), acquiring the target and using your sights, etc. Well, it's actually harder since a gun rests more on the weapon than you. Mastering the sword is harder than mastering a regular firearm for most self-defense situations. Different ways to achieve a simple purpose. The purpose of a heavy sword is for power, not for speed, and I don't think many of the techniques based on speed won't work on a heavy sword, just as how you can't use the same movements for a heavy sword as you can with a sabre or an epee. Basic, underlying principles are pretty much the same, but due to differences, I personally can't see combing all the sword arts into one deal without a new weapon, in agreement with sweeper.

 

[Matt Stone]

The jian, the dao, the katana all are swords. The similarity in their use pretty much ends there.

The jian is used to cut vital areas. The broadsword is a utilitarian blade that can cut through limbs, but is much better at cutting softer body areas. The katana can cut through damn near anything.

As for weight, the jian is extremely light. The broadsword less so. A shinken ("live blade") katana is pretty darn heavy.

Musashi did use two blades at a time, and his katana is known to have been rather large (I have seen a replica of it in Japan, and it is much larger than contemporary blades). Musashi, however, was also known to be quite a large, strong man, and therefore better enabled to use two at a time.

The use of these swords, though, their intended purposes, are extremely dissimilar. The cutting action of a straight sword versus a curved blade are significantly different, and function follows form.

Good luck, but I don't think you'll be able to do it without coming up with a new blade design to incorporate the movements you want to into one method. And given that blade technology is a very old art, I don't think you will be able to come up with a design that hasn't already been done before.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: